The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles, 2018)

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Roger Ryan
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Re: 952 The Magnificent Ambersons

#251 Post by Roger Ryan » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:59 pm

albucat wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:36 am
I got kind of half a response by sending a twitter message to Rymsza. He never answered about the DVDs/Blu-rays, but he said all the other perks had been distributed, and seemed pretty conscious of the campaign still. I suspect nothing will happen until after it's out on Netflix, unfortunately.
A recent answer (via Twitter) from Rymsza mentioned that a DVD or Blu-ray of TOSOTW will still be sent to backers of the Indiegogo campaign, but would not happen until after the film premiers on Netflix (Nov. 2nd). As to The Trial, a decent Blu-ray was released in France about four years ago and it's that transfer which played recently on TCM. There is definitely room for improvement with the transfer which has some weak spots and, unfortunately, superimposes credits over the final shot which don't sync up properly with Welles narrating the credits.

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Re: 952 The Magnificent Ambersons

#252 Post by DRW.mov » Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:15 am

I attended a screening of TOSOTW earlier this week at USC, and in the Q&A the producers, Frank Marshall and Filip Rymsza, stated that they are already working on creating special feature elements for a planning physical “special edition” release, they specifically mentioned making something out of the hours outtakes including hours of onset interviews with Chabrol, Hopper, Bogdanovich, etc. They stated that doing a lavish physical release is very important to them and that Netflix has given them essentially a carte blanche in terms of physical and theatrical distribution. A 35mm print has been struck and is touring and 4 more are on their way and the film will be exhibited on 35mm wherever applicable. Marshall and Rymsza appear to be far from finished getting this film the full release expected of it and I wouldn’t be too surprised if they’re able to bring it to disc via Criterion or Kino or someone of that caliber.

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Re: 952 The Magnificent Ambersons

#253 Post by albucat » Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:59 am

A lot of this is great news... they should really mention this to the people they, you know, promised a physical release to already.

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Re: 952 The Magnificent Ambersons

#254 Post by Fortisquince » Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:55 pm

My dream is that TOSOTW is the masterpiece that I think it is and Netflix spends a ton of money to get it best picture and best director Academy Award nominations...assuming it gets a true theatrical release, of course, which I have to admit I’m not sure of.

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Roger Ryan
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Re: 952 The Magnificent Ambersons

#255 Post by Roger Ryan » Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:00 pm

Fortisquince wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:55 pm
My dream is that TOSOTW is the masterpiece that I think it is and Netflix spends a ton of money to get it best picture and best director Academy Award nominations...assuming it gets a true theatrical release, of course, which I have to admit I’m not sure of.
Netflix is already promoting it for award consideration, although I don't think the company is doing itself any favors by calling it an "unreleased film" in the synopsis!

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Re: 952 The Magnificent Ambersons

#256 Post by Fortisquince » Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:16 pm

Wow, that synopsis is weak, but thanks for sending it along.

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles, 2018)

#257 Post by mfunk9786 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:02 am

Outside of wondering how many people are going to wake up to the Netflix menu screen after falling asleep during the first 10 or 15 minutes of this, it was every bit as great as the hype around it, if one is willing to submit themselves to the frenetic late Welles editing and shooting style. John Huston is in full Daniel Plainview mode here, he has so much scenery to chew and he doesn't leave a scrap behind. The film within a film is visually spectacular, due in no small part to its leering at Oja Kodar's constantly nude body - but there are excellent experimental late 60s-early 70s trappings there, and it feels as though it could have conceivably existed outside of this film, which is no small feat on Welles' part. The whole exercise spirals out of control in a fascinating way, with the film's troubling existential questions about the value of art filmmaking itself feeling genuinely fascinating and in no way dated or irrelevant - I could not believe how fresh this film felt, and how appropriate it seems to me that it did not see the light of day until now. As a rumination on the enduring value of this sort of art and the difficulty of completing it, it certainly seems conceivable that it would not be as great as it is (and it is great) were it not for the long and winding road that led us to its release. Life imitating art, and art imitating life.

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles, 2018)

#258 Post by domino harvey » Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:31 pm

Considering DDL based Plainview on Huston in Chinatown, does that just mean John Huston is in full John Huston mode?

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles, 2018)

#259 Post by mfunk9786 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:45 pm

Oh for sure, it's absolutely circular. But there's one moment in particular in this film where Huston asks a nervous, nebbishy character to stand up and undress in front of everyone and it feels so much like the final scene of There Will Be Blood - it's a testament to how well Day-Lewis mimicked that manner of speech and persona, and also to how incredibly singular (and badass) Huston was

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Big Ben
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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles, 2018)

#260 Post by Big Ben » Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:55 pm

It was weird watching this. It's a film both out of time and both shockingly present and it's a film about a time gone by that's somehow shockingly present. Amidst all the bravado and mystique it's fascinating watching things spiral out of control. As Huston's character begins to break and the facade around all things Hollywood begin to break down things begin to get all the more prescient.

mfunk mentions a great scene above involving asking someone to remove their clothes but the real kicker for me was slightly before it:
SpoilerShow
The schoolteacher has the audacity to insinuate that Huston's character is really gay and that all his macho man bravado is covering up for his vast insecurities. It's a raw moment and it undercuts a lot of what I feel the film is about, superficiality. Huston has plenty of scenes to chew on but when he finally begins to crack is when the film really begins to shine. It's all bullshit of course, but the cult of Huston's character lives on in spite of it.
I really like this film and I'm still sort of processing it but the one thing that nags at me is just how much of this Welles intended to be self insertion and how much of it is meant at some level to be pitch black satire. A great many things that Huston's character experiences are ones that Welles did as well and in one instance, explicitly so.

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles, 2018)

#261 Post by Persona » Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:17 pm

So, uh, this might be my second favorite Welles after The Trial.

Simply brilliant stuff, so dense and yet so clear at the same time (enormous props to the post-production team, my God, they knocked it way out of the park). Hypnotic and dizzying. The raw materials--you can feel their energy: it's insane in a way that only genius can be. The treatment of the footage is gorgeous. The editing team managed some level of coherence without losing that energy, at all. The sound team did exemplary work. The score by Legrand is the best score I've heard all year. The sum is something that is both deeply sad and viciously funny.

Wowzers.

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles, 2018)

#262 Post by Drucker » Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:53 pm

Just got back from 35mm and my initial thoughts are that this very much feels like a Welles film! Early energy, slow disillusionment, a mournful ending. Pacing-wise felt very in line with most of his work! I feel confident subsequent screenings will show it to be even richer, but if you're a Welles devotee there's a lot to love. That doesn't mean it's perfect. When they first introduce the film within a film, the movie comes to a screeching halt, and if it had been a minute or two longer I may have tapped out. But it picks back up. Going to sleep on it and wait for more posts, but I absolutely agree with the Touch of Evil references, especially considering how much one particular female character is clearly a stand-in for Dietrich.

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles, 2018)

#263 Post by barryconvex » Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:35 am

There were parts of this that were just incredible, mostly the film within the film and more specifically Oja Kodar. If anybody was more wounded than Welles by the film's unfortunate odyssey it's surely Kodar who is so hypnotic in a wordless (and mostly clothes-less) role that it's unimaginable she could not have had the same kind of international career that someone like say Natasja Kinski had in the 70s-80s. The scene in the car in the rain and the scene in the abandoned backlot are two that should be included on the shortlist of Welles' very finest achievements. Huston gets into his character gradually (he seems somewhat baffled by the production and most definitely drunk in the early going) but by the film's halfway point there's no mistaking he'd figured it out and was giving it everything he had. He's playing a larger than life figure who's been mortally wounded by the unfortunate fact that his chosen art form is so hugely reliant on so many inferiors as much as he is by his own need to create under those conditions. If he had been blessed with the ability to paint or sculpt or do anything that required solitary creation he might've had a much happier life.

Welles must've been angry and/or dejected at the state of his career in the years leading up to Wind with good reason, and though the film does sometimes tread a fine line it never tips over into outright bitterness. The decision to satirize people like Pauline Kael, Antonioni and Robert Evans comes off as silly, he can barely contain his jealousy of Bogdanovich and much of the "documentary" footage is distractingly sloppy to put it kindly but the assembly of the myriad parts is amazingly well done and with a light enough touch that it never turns into a mope. As the culmination of the latter years in a great artist's life it feels like a fitting swan song.

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles, 2018)

#264 Post by mfunk9786 » Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:56 am

Image

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Big Ben
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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles, 2018)

#265 Post by Big Ben » Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:22 am

barryconvex wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:35 am
Welles must've been angry and/or dejected at the state of his career in the years leading up to Wind with good reason, and though the film does sometimes tread a fine line it never tips over into outright bitterness. The decision to satirize people like Pauline Kael, Antonioni and Robert Evans comes off as silly, he can barely contain his jealousy of Bogdanovich and much of the "documentary" footage is distractingly sloppy to put it kindly but the assembly of the myriad parts is amazingly well done and with a light enough touch that it never turns into a mope. As the culmination of the latter years in a great artist's life it feels like a fitting swan song.
It's interesting because in the time that Welles intermittently shot this Bogdonavich went from critical acclaim to critical disappointment (In Hollywood's view I suppose.). Independent of how I feel about about things like At Long Last Love and Nickelodeon I don't think it's disingenuous to state that Bogdonavich had more than one hiccup.

Speaking for myself I thought Bogdonavich's character was meant to be a parody of the apostles famous directors attract (Bogdonavich's character even uses the world apostle.).

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles, 2018)

#266 Post by Persona » Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:57 am

If Welles is satirizing others it would seem that he is satirizing himself and his view of those others even more, so I don't think it's silly, these caricatures built into a film drenched in self-caricature. This is the artist's ego in its twilight, and it's something of a hellscape. Of the uber-meta, self-reflexive film-about-itself niche genre, I think this is the only one that comes close to approaching the potency of 8 1/2.

The Kael stand-in actually seems to me a favorable character. She's pompous and pugnacious, sure, not unlike Hannaford. That bothers him, this reflection of his own egotistical qualities in a female form, but what bothers him more is she is actually insightful--into his art and into him as a person. He hates her for that, in fact.
SpoilerShow
Leading to his lashing out at her, which is basically the climax of the film and his undoing--in the end, he rejects being known. The whole project that Zara has put on has pushed him over the brink, all the probing people and cameras. Cameras that Hannaford usually tried to shoot others with, to take their vitality, to use his art as a way to possess. Now the cameras have owned him, shot him. Shot him dead.

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles, 2018)

#267 Post by ShellOilJunior » Mon Nov 05, 2018 11:47 am

I think I heard Otterlake refer to Hannaford as "Dad" once or twice, a name that Anderson and Baumbach affectionately use for Peter B.

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles, 2018)

#268 Post by domino harvey » Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:30 pm

mfunk9786 wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:56 am
Image
Abdellatif Kechiche is Welles' heir apparent if Mektoub, My Love is any indication

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Roger Ryan
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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles, 2018)

#269 Post by Roger Ryan » Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:35 pm

Big Ben wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:55 pm
...but the one thing that nags at me is just how much of this Welles intended to be self insertion and how much of it is meant at some level to be pitch black satire. A great many things that Huston's character experiences are ones that Welles did as well and in one instance, explicitly so.
Welles is absolutely using his personal background to inform the film: John Dale's birth name was "Oscar", for God's sake, which his fellow students at the all-boy's school (read as Welles' own Todd School) teased him about (not too hard to see the name as a substitute for "Orson"); the English teacher Burroughs, along with Dale's "Aunt Daisy", are clearly modeled on Welles' mentor at Todd, Roger "Skipper" Hill, and his wife Hortense, respectively; Hannaford's line regarding Hemingway's "left hook being overrated" is a direct reference to the fist-to-cuffs Welles reportedly got into with Hemingway during the recording of the narration for the Hemingway-scripted This Spanish Earth in 1937. In fact, the entire film was inspired by Welles' distrust of the macho facade put on by men like Hemingway.

By the nature of Hannaford being an aging director trying to complete his film, the viewer naturally assumes he is a stand-in for the director of the film we're watching. But Welles also wants you to know that the Hannaford character is not entirely inspired by Welles himself. A crucial bit of early info (admittedly, presented in an obfuscated manner) reveals Hannaford's utter contempt for "hippies" or the youth culture of the time. This would have been the direct opposite of Welles' true feelings and was meant to indicate to a younger audience that Hannaford was a flawed character who could be mean-spirited despite his obvious charm. Also, while Welles is clearly on the side of the filmmaker creating his work free of studio interference, he must know that Hannaford's film is ridiculous and inauthentic. Essentially, Welles has it both ways: his vicious satire is built on real-life experiences, people he has admired, and even himself; whatever it takes to get across the themes he's addressing.

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles, 2018)

#270 Post by Kirkinson » Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:34 am

Just got back from seeing this in 35mm and I thought it was fantastic, truly top-tier Welles for me — maybe just under Kane and The Trial. I will probably have to watch it a few more times to say anything truly insightful (and I think commenters here so far have done a really great job analyzing the story & characters) but at the moment I am really awestruck by just how radical it felt. It's so wild and disorienting and breathless, but it feels absolutely authentically like a mid-70s Welles film should. It's as if F for Fake was a fuse and this is the bomb. It feels cut from the same cloth as that one, and from the same cloth as the scenes we know Welles already worked on — Murawski really did superb work here and ought to be given every possible award for it.

Visually it's just incredible to look at, as well. Much has been made in reviews about how gorgeous the film-within-the-film is, and that's very true — the use of color and reflective surfaces is astonishing — but I think the visual style of the meat of the story is also fascinating and has possibly gone undervalued in comparison. While it looks like a total mess at first, I think the method behind the mess eventually starts to reveal itself as you get used to the film's rhythms. In the universe of the film, each of the documentary, television, and news crews scattered around the party has their own distinct shooting style. One crew is shooting on grainy black-and-white 16mm with zoom lenses, another on smooth, silvery black-and-white 35mm with normal-range lenses, another in color with mostly wides — it may all just be a clever way of dealing with a stop-and-start production shooting on scraps, but I think it works brilliantly, and each style seems totally consistent unto itself. It really looks as if it was assembled from several different unique creative perspectives. It might be a fun project to cut some reels together of various shots from each of those different formats & styles to see if they really are as consistent as they felt to me while I was watching.

I can't wait to see it again. It's still surreal to me that this even exists, let alone that Netflix helped make it happen. (It's also pretty surreal to see their logo projected in a theater on 35mm!)

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles, 2018)

#271 Post by Roscoe » Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:12 am

Roger Ryan wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:35 pm
By the nature of Hannaford being an aging director trying to complete his film, the viewer naturally assumes he is a stand-in for the director of the film we're watching. But Welles also wants you to know that the Hannaford character is not entirely inspired by Welles himself. A crucial bit of early info (admittedly, presented in an obfuscated manner) reveals Hannaford's utter contempt for "hippies" or the youth culture of the time. This would have been the direct opposite of Welles' true feelings and was meant to indicate to a younger audience that Hannaford was a flawed character who could be mean-spirited despite his obvious charm. Also, while Welles is clearly on the side of the filmmaker creating his work free of studio interference, he must know that Hannaford's film is ridiculous and inauthentic. Essentially, Welles has it both ways: his vicious satire is built on real-life experiences, people he has admired, and even himself; whatever it takes to get across the themes he's addressing.
Well yeah, and there's also the backstory of Hannaford coming from a distinguished theatrical dynasty, which seems more true of Huston than of Welles. And Jake's father's name, Junius, pretty blatantly echoes the name of Junius Brutus Booth, the father of Edwin Booth and the notorious John Wilkes Booth.

I can echo some of what has been posted so far about the film. I just can't say that I found it particularly interesting except as a grab bag of flashy celluloid -- the characters are merely dreadful, never once becoming particularly interesting. Even Billy Boyd comes off like a pale imitation other Welles characters, Bernstein in KANE and Menzies in TOUCH OF EVIL, without ever for a moment summoning the interest or pathos of his predecessors. I'd seen a couple of sections from the film before in a program of Orson Welles Rarities a few years back, and found them to be the real highlights of the film -- that car scene in particular.

Maybe repeat viewings will reveal more. Mileage varies.

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles, 2018)

#272 Post by FrauBlucher » Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:44 pm

Can anyone confirm the suggestion that Netflix gave permission to the producers to secure a deal for a physical media release? I thought I read that somewhere that may have been a second hand source.

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles, 2018)

#273 Post by senseabove » Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:55 pm

FrauBlucher wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:44 pm
Can anyone confirm the suggestion that Netflix gave permission to the producers to secure a deal for a physical media release? I thought I read that somewhere that may have been a second hand source.
DRW.mov wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:15 am
I attended a screening of TOSOTW earlier this week at USC, and in the Q&A the producers, Frank Marshall and Filip Rymsza, stated that they are already working on creating special feature elements for a planning physical “special edition” release, they specifically mentioned making something out of the hours outtakes including hours of onset interviews with Chabrol, Hopper, Bogdanovich, etc. They stated that doing a lavish physical release is very important to them and that Netflix has given them essentially a carte blanche in terms of physical and theatrical distribution. A 35mm print has been struck and is touring and 4 more are on their way and the film will be exhibited on 35mm wherever applicable. Marshall and Rymsza appear to be far from finished getting this film the full release expected of it and I wouldn’t be too surprised if they’re able to bring it to disc via Criterion or Kino or someone of that caliber.

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles, 2018)

#274 Post by FrauBlucher » Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:01 pm

Marshall and Rymsza appear to be far from finished getting this film the full release expected of it and I wouldn’t be too surprised if they’re able to bring it to disc via Criterion or Kino or someone of that caliber.
Awesome. Thanks senseabove. I can't see Criterion letting this one slip by.

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles, 2018)

#275 Post by hearthesilence » Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:11 pm

david hare wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:06 pm
I will raise one technical question here. I also raised it on social media but it can probably only be answered by a technical person. I watched it on reference standard Panasonic 4k display. with HDR. So we watched Netflix’ own 4K HDR standard broadcast. The image quality was superb, if light on grain which is consistent for Netflix 4K stuff. But in all, and I mean every single one of the B&W shots there is constant color banding, across the image. Sometimes light pink sometimes light green. It’s maddening. It looks like a chroma issue but is probably related to metadata in the encoding. Has anyone else seen this, in any format?
Yikes, I've only seen the 35mm print that was premiered at the NYFF (and presumably shown at IFC this past week), and not surprisingly I didn't see anything like that.

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