Ludwig
Moderator: yoloswegmaster
- tenia
- Ask Me About My Bassoon
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:13 am
Re: Ludwig
It looks that some brighter scenes are just brighter because of the original photography, and I wrongly believed it to be part of the pattern linked to Italian restorations.
Seems like it was my mistake.
Seems like it was my mistake.
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- Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 1:10 pm
Re: Ludwig
Brightened relative to what, though?M Sanderson wrote:So it's just been brightened a bit?
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- Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2016 3:43 am
Re: Ludwig
I haven't seen it yet. Someone posted that it might be over bright. I'm getting people's opinions before I buy it.
Most people seem to like this transfer including website reviews so there's a good chance I'll pick it up and add to the discussion in a more direct manner.
There have been some truly remarkable restorations out of Italy such as Caliber 9, Grande Bouffe (French-Italian film), Day of Anger and Zombie Flesheaters - and I also liked the restorations of Three Brothers and Deep Red. But there have also been strange looking ones as well that I quickly sold at CeX, which makes me cautious before buying.
Most people seem to like this transfer including website reviews so there's a good chance I'll pick it up and add to the discussion in a more direct manner.
There have been some truly remarkable restorations out of Italy such as Caliber 9, Grande Bouffe (French-Italian film), Day of Anger and Zombie Flesheaters - and I also liked the restorations of Three Brothers and Deep Red. But there have also been strange looking ones as well that I quickly sold at CeX, which makes me cautious before buying.
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- Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2008 3:31 am
- Location: Somerset, England
Re: Ludwig
Visconti's dull treatment of his subject? Personally, I much prefer the Dieterle and Käutner films (despite being a fan of much of Visconti's other work).David M. wrote:Brightened relative to what, though?M Sanderson wrote:So it's just been brightened a bit?
- Fred Holywell
- Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:45 pm
Re: Ludwig
Just received mine today, but haven't had a chance to look at it yet. I've always admired Visconti's work here, but do wish there were more of Senso and The Leopard to the production (i.e. opera sequences, lush parties and dances, battle scenes) -- and something showing the actual construction of Ludwig's incredible castles. I suppose budgetary constraints kept much of the drama to what one reviewer called "a series of telephone scenes." Or maybe Visconti just wasn't as interested in portraying the type of scope and grandeur he presented in those previous films. I do feel Käutner dramatized those particular aspects quite effectively in his version. Though, of course, he wasn't able to flesh out Ludwig's sexual nature the way Visconti did. So to speak.Jonathan S wrote:Visconti's dull treatment of his subject? Personally, I much prefer the Dieterle and Käutner films (despite being a fan of much of Visconti's other work).David M. wrote:Brightened relative to what, though?M Sanderson wrote:So it's just been brightened a bit?
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- Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2016 3:43 am
Re: Ludwig
A very different Visconti, static and with pools of darkness and sickly lighting in particular of faces. Not as delicately photographed as such films as The Leopard and The Innocent. It serves the film's purpose, though with its depiction of decadence and slow decay, of being imprisoned. There is almost a feel of Gothic horror, shades of Poe literature and film adaptations. Like watching an arthouse version of Vincent Price's Roderick Usher - sensitive, effeminate, with a close relation to architecture- unravel painstakingly. Perhaps with the lighting of the 1960s Pit and the Pendulum.
In the early episodes we see Ludwig cramped by tradition and protocol. There are some brilliant edits to images of objects within the scene completely obscuring him. Gives the feeling that everything is pressing in on him and prefigures nicely the shot of him in the mental hospital from outside the window. This film is one languorous descent from privilege to physical and mental collapse - of a man whose attempt to live vicariously through other artists, and to live -literally - in his own solipsistic creations, cannot save him. Definitely not for everyone but this is as thorough treatment on this theme likely that I'll ever see.
The Blu ray seems to do a very good job and justify all the positive reviews. Not a Milano Calibro 9 level of transfer but very good and I can see why the notoriously stingy when rating British discs Blu-raydotcom awarded the PQ 4.5/5.
In the early episodes we see Ludwig cramped by tradition and protocol. There are some brilliant edits to images of objects within the scene completely obscuring him. Gives the feeling that everything is pressing in on him and prefigures nicely the shot of him in the mental hospital from outside the window. This film is one languorous descent from privilege to physical and mental collapse - of a man whose attempt to live vicariously through other artists, and to live -literally - in his own solipsistic creations, cannot save him. Definitely not for everyone but this is as thorough treatment on this theme likely that I'll ever see.
The Blu ray seems to do a very good job and justify all the positive reviews. Not a Milano Calibro 9 level of transfer but very good and I can see why the notoriously stingy when rating British discs Blu-raydotcom awarded the PQ 4.5/5.
Re: Ludwig
I sat down to watch a little of this, maybe the first half, yesterday and ended up watching the whole thing. It's much more roughly made and episodic than I expected, but very compelling. I watched with the English soundtrack, and it is a little comical and jarring when the parts with no available English dialogue track begin as the Italian voice dubbers have much smoother, sultrier voices than their Anglophone originals. It's just a little funny to have Helmut Berger's seething, reedy, heavily accented, wildly recorded English suddenly transform into Giancarlo Giannini's silken, closely-miked Italian and then back again. That aside, it's a wonderful film, and I'm glad I waited years to view it until this restored version finally became available.
Berger's performance is really quite good, sliding gradually from the stick-straight, beautiful youth of the beginning to the wild-haired, rotten-toothed paranoiac threatening to throw himself from his castle tower near the end. I thought Romy Schneider was excellent as well, and I've never been much of a fan of her. I particularly liked the nearly wordless scenes of her wandering Ludwig's various opulent dwellings looking for him. In fact, the other nearly wordless scenes (Ludwig's creeping through the woods to spy on his groom bathing naked in the lake, the post-orgy survey of his male hangers-on in the lodge in the woods, his strange arrival in the clamshell boat to greet the actor, Kainz, in the underground grotto—you can sense a certain theme here) were some of the most interesting in the film, and I wish there had been more of that and less dialogue overall. I need a Claire Denis remake where Ludwig just quietly creeps around for a couple hours spying on attractive men while slowly going mad.
It's not Visconti's best work, but I enjoyed it more than I ever enjoyed his more famous middle-period works like Senso, Le Notti Bianche, and Rocco. Thank you, Arrow, for doing right by it.
Berger's performance is really quite good, sliding gradually from the stick-straight, beautiful youth of the beginning to the wild-haired, rotten-toothed paranoiac threatening to throw himself from his castle tower near the end. I thought Romy Schneider was excellent as well, and I've never been much of a fan of her. I particularly liked the nearly wordless scenes of her wandering Ludwig's various opulent dwellings looking for him. In fact, the other nearly wordless scenes (Ludwig's creeping through the woods to spy on his groom bathing naked in the lake, the post-orgy survey of his male hangers-on in the lodge in the woods, his strange arrival in the clamshell boat to greet the actor, Kainz, in the underground grotto—you can sense a certain theme here) were some of the most interesting in the film, and I wish there had been more of that and less dialogue overall. I need a Claire Denis remake where Ludwig just quietly creeps around for a couple hours spying on attractive men while slowly going mad.
It's not Visconti's best work, but I enjoyed it more than I ever enjoyed his more famous middle-period works like Senso, Le Notti Bianche, and Rocco. Thank you, Arrow, for doing right by it.
- colinr0380
- Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 4:30 pm
- Location: Chapel-en-le-Frith, Derbyshire, UK
Re: Ludwig
Those are great posts M.Sanderson and Werewolf by Night! Werewolf, have you seen Death In Venice, Visconti's film just prior to Ludwig, as that also features lots of those wordless following and 'spying on attractive men whilst slowly going mad' scenes too, just less consumated and more yearning!
The thing that most interests me about these later Visconti films is that from the early, arguably neo-realist, dramas it feels like Visconti moved to a sense of a detached character moving through and embodying their social and cultural millieu during his mid-period (Senso and The Leopard), and then pushed that to something much more narrowly focused on someone who has created their own, almost solipsistic, cultural millieu looking out at life beyond their decaying and decadant world that is likely going to die with them. Death In Venice feels like the ultimate version of yearning without ever having to burst that bubble by any actual contact, elevating the gaze. In fact contact ruins the fantasy of the mind. Ludwig feels like it gets into that idea of being powerful enough to co-opt people into sharing your delusions with you. And then Conversation Piece and L'innocente critique that central watching figure more severely by making them seem out of step with their time somewhat. Although in all the films, from the problems with the luggage and getting mocked by a passenger in Death In Venice on, there is that sense that outside of the beautiful bubble, or at least the handsome youths, that the wider world is a pretty crass place in itself (its where I think Visconti and Pasolini start meeting up again in their 70s work, though coming from different angles), and maybe living in an opulent fantasy delusion might be the preferable option.
The thing that most interests me about these later Visconti films is that from the early, arguably neo-realist, dramas it feels like Visconti moved to a sense of a detached character moving through and embodying their social and cultural millieu during his mid-period (Senso and The Leopard), and then pushed that to something much more narrowly focused on someone who has created their own, almost solipsistic, cultural millieu looking out at life beyond their decaying and decadant world that is likely going to die with them. Death In Venice feels like the ultimate version of yearning without ever having to burst that bubble by any actual contact, elevating the gaze. In fact contact ruins the fantasy of the mind. Ludwig feels like it gets into that idea of being powerful enough to co-opt people into sharing your delusions with you. And then Conversation Piece and L'innocente critique that central watching figure more severely by making them seem out of step with their time somewhat. Although in all the films, from the problems with the luggage and getting mocked by a passenger in Death In Venice on, there is that sense that outside of the beautiful bubble, or at least the handsome youths, that the wider world is a pretty crass place in itself (its where I think Visconti and Pasolini start meeting up again in their 70s work, though coming from different angles), and maybe living in an opulent fantasy delusion might be the preferable option.
Re: Ludwig
I think Death in Venice was the first Visconti I ever saw, and I've seen it a couple of times since (and have read the book in a couple of translations). It started my minor obsession with Dirk Bogarde that even resulting in my watching some of those Doctor movies he was in. I need to give it (and The Damned, which is probably my favorite Visconti) another spin someday soon.
- rohmerin
- Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:36 am
- Location: Spain
Re: Ludwig
I can't sleep... without confess that Visconti is my favourite auteur in my particular passion for Italian cinema. The Leopard was his first oeuvre I saw, two days after Lancaster's death, I remember it was Saturday, it was shown on tv in a tribute to him and I watched, I was 16 years old, it was a 14 inches tv but nothing special happens (it was a small tv, dubbed,
It was a year later, summer, Aunt's home, when I watched Conversation Piece, that is still my favourite one. That film changed all. Then I watched all, from VHS recorded from old tv emissions to 35 mm (Death in Venice and Senso).
It was a year later, summer, Aunt's home, when I watched Conversation Piece, that is still my favourite one. That film changed all. Then I watched all, from VHS recorded from old tv emissions to 35 mm (Death in Venice and Senso).
That's Blasphemy ! Her grave was profaned this weekend south to Paris. Perhaps is that because I cannot sleep.Romy Schneider was excellent as well, and I've never been much of a fan of her
- domino harvey
- Dot Com Dom
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 pm
Re: Ludwig
Still haven't cracked open Arrow's intimidating brick yet (it's been sitting in front of my TV for weeks, taunting me with its length), but Schneider is in my favorite Visconti film, his lengthy segment from Boccaccio '70, one of the great (and overlooked) films of the sixties
- rohmerin
- Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:36 am
- Location: Spain
Re: Ludwig
I've got enough time for Ludwig but explain to be still and quiet like in a Church to my airedale terrier for 4 hours. Impossible. Visconti deserves peace and concentration.
I have to try The Damned in the WB German dubbed version.
I don't love the whole Boccaccio 70 very much, although Romy is amazing, and dressed by Chanel.
I have to try The Damned in the WB German dubbed version.
I don't love the whole Boccaccio 70 very much, although Romy is amazing, and dressed by Chanel.
- domino harvey
- Dot Com Dom
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 pm
Re: Ludwig
I don't even remember the other segments aside from Fellini's endless Tashlin-aping breast jokes
- knives
- Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:49 pm
Re: Ludwig
I'm the opposite, I didn't even remember Visconti had a segment, but I at least remember the rest.
- ellipsis7
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 1:56 pm
- Location: Dublin
Re: Ludwig
The segment is called IL LAVORO (THE JOB) and rather amusingly the most formidable of the dogs that appear at the opening is named Michelangelo, in Visconti's somewhat ironic nod to his fellow auteur Antonioni...domino harvey wrote:Schneider is in my favorite Visconti film, his lengthy segment from Boccaccio '70, one of the great (and overlooked) films of the sixties
COUNT: What's going on?
ZACCHI: Professor Berardelli's afraid of Michelangelo.
Ottavio, with a tired gesture, turns to look at Professor Berardelli, at whom the largest of the dogs is snarling and barking furiously.
COUNT:They can tell right away if you don't like them (To the dog) Michelangelo. (With extreme kindness) Take it easy, Michelangelo. Masaccio, come here. Don't you get into it too. (The count goes to the door, opens it and calls with sudden irritation) Antonio! (The first servant appears ) Why didn't you tell me Zacchi wasn't alone? (To dogs) Go on out. Take them away.
FIRST SERVANT: (weakly) I did say. But perhaps you didn't hear me, sir.
The dogs try to regain their master's confidence by lying down.
COUNT: (without raising his voice) I said get out.
The dogs go out behind the first servant, whining and growling one last time at Professor Berardelli.
ANOTHER LAWYER: (with forced cordiality) They're splendid animals. What breed are they?
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Re: Ludwig
Nice Ludwig ánd L'Innocente write-up in the June Sight and Sound issue.
- rohmerin
- Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:36 am
- Location: Spain
Re: Ludwig
Who did restore L'Innocente? Anyone knows that? In dvdbeaver looks spectacular.
- domino harvey
- Dot Com Dom
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 pm
Re: Ludwig
Well, I didn't like this at all. Berger is pretty awful (his perf would probably play better in the Italian dub, based on the scraps we get in the English version), ocularly-gesticulating and whining non-stop. But he's not helped by the film, which is four hours about someone who has maybe four minutes of interesting life details. Visconti really locked into a groove in his later years on the same thing over and over, and this is just too much of too little. Visually uninteresting, thematically familiar and tired, and so on. While I didn't hate anything here, the film and everything in it is immediately forgettable, and at four hours, too costly. Props to Arrow as usual for going their extra mile here, but this turned out to be another film that didn't really merit it
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- Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:47 am
Re: Ludwig
The film is certainly a big ask for a mass audience. If you have no interest in absolute monarchy or Richard Wagner or the decadence of empires, you will not be swept up in this picture.
The first thing the American distribs did was cut it by an hour or so, then the British cut it by a further 45 minutes. You already know this didn't help.
Helmut Berger gives his most effective performance in this film, clearly coaxed and coached by his adoring mentor the director. His evolution from frightened handsome young prince into the bloated hulk of a rotting king is remarkable and unforgettable. The principal performers spoke their roles in English, and having this track almost complete is a must. Berger's mounting vocal hysteria is a far cry from the suave dubbed tones of Giannini.
There are numerous scenes of slow cinema which should hold no terrors for followers of Wong Kar-Wai or Bela Tarr, only this was 1972. The morning of the coronation near the beginning of the film is shown as a muffled protocol hell for Ludwig. If you don't care for this sequence I'd guess this film is not for you.
(I personally find the courtiers' frequent depositions of evidence to the coroner a problematic device for backgrounding and moving the story on, but cutting them out only made the situation much worse.)
But for those fascinated by Visconti and by the subject matter, Arrow has produced a superb edition; in Hamlet's words, "caviare to the general".
The first thing the American distribs did was cut it by an hour or so, then the British cut it by a further 45 minutes. You already know this didn't help.
Helmut Berger gives his most effective performance in this film, clearly coaxed and coached by his adoring mentor the director. His evolution from frightened handsome young prince into the bloated hulk of a rotting king is remarkable and unforgettable. The principal performers spoke their roles in English, and having this track almost complete is a must. Berger's mounting vocal hysteria is a far cry from the suave dubbed tones of Giannini.
There are numerous scenes of slow cinema which should hold no terrors for followers of Wong Kar-Wai or Bela Tarr, only this was 1972. The morning of the coronation near the beginning of the film is shown as a muffled protocol hell for Ludwig. If you don't care for this sequence I'd guess this film is not for you.
(I personally find the courtiers' frequent depositions of evidence to the coroner a problematic device for backgrounding and moving the story on, but cutting them out only made the situation much worse.)
But for those fascinated by Visconti and by the subject matter, Arrow has produced a superb edition; in Hamlet's words, "caviare to the general".
- domino harvey
- Dot Com Dom
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 pm
Re: Ludwig
I thought the coronation scene was intended to show procedural Hell, but in actuality it was just a long artless sequence that anyone could have made. No majesty, no coldness or warmth-- no hand, essentially, and no ambition beyond the presentational. CC that to the whole movie.
- knives
- Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:49 pm
Re: Ludwig
I'll ditto Dom. When I watched this years ago I couldn't help but find it an overlong collection of things Visconti did better elsewhere. The only particularly memorable element was Ludwig's rotten teeth and surely that could have been accomplished in a more engaging film.
Last edited by knives on Mon May 22, 2017 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
- domino harvey
- Dot Com Dom
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 pm
Re: Ludwig
If you love long mediocre historical movies with bad teeth, there's always John Adams
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- Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2010 5:10 pm
Re: Ludwig
Thanks for saving me from blind-buying this.
I don't know, I guess Visconti is not really my thing.
I blind-bought Il Gattopardo, I didn't really like it, though I should watch it again a second time. I don't remember anything. I only remember I was sick through half the film and I threw up afterwards.
Senso and Rocco and his brothers: didn't hate them, wasn't thrilled either..
Death in Venice: liked it a lot mostly due to the subject and music, but again wasn't thrilled.
I find his films somewhat boring, i don't know why.
I don't know, I guess Visconti is not really my thing.
I blind-bought Il Gattopardo, I didn't really like it, though I should watch it again a second time. I don't remember anything. I only remember I was sick through half the film and I threw up afterwards.
Senso and Rocco and his brothers: didn't hate them, wasn't thrilled either..
Death in Venice: liked it a lot mostly due to the subject and music, but again wasn't thrilled.
I find his films somewhat boring, i don't know why.
- knives
- Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:49 pm
Re: Ludwig
Sounds similar to me, though I find Mann's book to force the movie into redundant territory, which makes me have to recommend La terra treme which is unlike anything else he made.
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- Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:38 am
Re: Ludwig
Although I would not recommend blindbuying Ludwig, it does sound that Visconti is not really your thing, in that case, do not try Ludwig. It is, I would say, closer to Death in Venice, than the other films you mention.Costa wrote:Thanks for saving me from blind-buying this.
I don't know, I guess Visconti is not really my thing.
I blind-bought Il Gattopardo, I didn't really like it, though I should watch it again a second time. I don't remember anything. I only remember I was sick through half the film and I threw up afterwards.
Senso and Rocco and his brothers: didn't hate them, wasn't thrilled either..
Death in Venice: liked it a lot mostly due to the subject and music, but again wasn't thrilled.
I find his films somewhat boring, i don't know why.
I have to disagree with the assessment of the recent posters. Going in, I had an idea of what to expect, and I was pleasantly surprised. But I happen to like Visconti. To put it in the category of historical films, or to compare it with that, which is a rather vague one in the first place, is to come in with skewed expectations.