Kobe Bryant (1978-2020)

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bearcuborg
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Kobe Bryant (1978-2020)

#1 Post by bearcuborg » Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:00 pm

Kobe Bryant has died in a helicopter crash, according to the LA Times.

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Luke M
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Re: Passages

#2 Post by Luke M » Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:32 pm

I was lucky enough to see Kobe play in-person during a Finals game. I always rooted against the Lakers but I think even those who did had a ton of respect for his game. Closest we had to MJ after MJ.

Just surreal news, almost impossible to process it really. His impact on the game, even on today's game was unrivaled. He was one of the few former players who was secure with his legacy and didn't spend time belittling current players or their achievements. Even his last tweet is praising LeBron for passing him on the all-time scoring list. An unfathomable loss for basketball and my heart goes out for his family.

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Re: Passages

#3 Post by Glowingwabbit » Sun Jan 26, 2020 5:30 pm

bearcuborg wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:00 pm
Kobe Bryant has died in a helicopter crash, according to the LA Times.
Apparently his daughter was also on board. Really sad news.

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hearthesilence
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Re: Passages

#4 Post by hearthesilence » Sun Jan 26, 2020 6:58 pm

Luke M wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:32 pm
I was lucky enough to see Kobe play in-person during a Finals game. I always rooted against the Lakers but I think even those who did had a ton of respect for his game. Closest we had to MJ after MJ.
LeBron is more MJ-like, but ultimately such comparisons do a disservice to their enormous accomplishments on the court. Shaq and Kobe created such a dominant team in the Lakers, and despite the gossip then about their strained relationship as teammates, it's surprising to see how close they became later, which extended to their own children. (Shaq's son just shared a direct message from Kobe, who apparently checked on him shortly before the crash.)

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Gregor Samsa
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Re: Passages

#5 Post by Gregor Samsa » Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:02 pm


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hearthesilence
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Re: Kobe Bryant (1978-2020)

#6 Post by hearthesilence » Sun Jan 26, 2020 8:47 pm

It's amazing to see so many non-sports outlets - Pitchfork to BrooklynVegan to Legacy Recordings to the UCLA Film Archive, etc., etc. - all publishing tributes to Bryant, and I don't think I've ever read anything sports-related in any of those places.

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Lemmy Caution
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Re: Passages

#7 Post by Lemmy Caution » Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:49 am

hearthesilence wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 6:58 pm
Luke M wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:32 pm
I was lucky enough to see Kobe play in-person during a Finals game. I always rooted against the Lakers but I think even those who did had a ton of respect for his game. Closest we had to MJ after MJ.
LeBron is more MJ-like . . .
No, Luke is right, Kobe was a close imitation of Jordan in terms of style, athleticism, position, determination, tough on teammates, etc. Hell, even in terms of winning titles. Clearly he learned a lot from Jordan, as he often admitted. LeBron had more Magic Johnson to his game, being an elite passer rare for his size, especially early on when his shot was suspect. And in style terms, LeBJ was more physical, more of a freight train on drives than panther quick and flexible. And he was more of a leader and one of the guys in a Magic sort of way. LeBron has also played mostly as an SF and more recently as a PG, While MJ and Kobe were ball dominant G's (really combo guards paired with role playing PG's who could hit 3's or defend, both in Fisher's case). It was amazing how unique and sui generis Michael Jordan appeared to be -- an SG or any wing had never dominated as he did -- and then right on his heels Kobe come along and does damn near the same. [somewhat analogous is how Steph Curry seemed unique, and already there's Trae Young following in his footsteps. Basketball is more than most sports one of improvisation and therefore paradoxically one of imitation*].

In short, Kobe and LeBron had different bodies and different bodies of work. Overall, Kobe comes up a little short in the MJ comparison, but that's hardly a knock since MJ is widely considered the greatest basketball player ever. But Kobe amazingly came close in terms of style of play and results. LeBron comes closer to Jordan in terms of overall accomplishments and arguably could top Jordan as the greatest player ever. Really only those lost Finals holding him back from a clear claim of GOAT. LBJ will retire Top 3 all time in scoring (he's there now just having past Kobe the other day) and Top 3 all-time in assists, with a chance to finish 2nd in both (and Kareem's record isn't out of the question).

Kobe had a great career. Played hard and tough-minded. Had rare all-around talent. Kept the Laker legacy alive (and boosted Jerry West's formidable reputation). He also seemed to have a lot of projects and was poised for an interesting post-retirement career. Was just 41 with a 1 year baby. Led a great life on his own terms, and became famous enough to be known the world over by one name.


* I can document how I stole my spin move from Antoine Walker and Jamal Mashburn; my floater from Tony Parker, weak side rebounding courtesy of Larry Bird, overhead release from Jamaal Wilkes, my turnaround J from Paul Pierce, etc. In my young days I had a Kareem hook and a Dr. J finger roll I can still whip out on rare occasions.

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tenia
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Re: Kobe Bryant (1978-2020)

#8 Post by tenia » Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:32 am

hearthesilence wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 8:47 pm
It's amazing to see so many non-sports outlets - Pitchfork to BrooklynVegan to Legacy Recordings to the UCLA Film Archive, etc., etc. - all publishing tributes to Bryant, and I don't think I've ever read anything sports-related in any of those places.
Pitchfork has been reaching outside of their usual cultural realm for some years now, and might have already published something sports related before. In any case, I'm not surprised for them.

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Re: Kobe Bryant (1978-2020)

#9 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:14 am

hearthesilence wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 8:47 pm
It's amazing to see so many non-sports outlets - Pitchfork to BrooklynVegan to Legacy Recordings to the UCLA Film Archive, etc., etc. - all publishing tributes to Bryant, and I don't think I've ever read anything sports-related in any of those places.
There's been more of a crossover between sports culture and pop culture online in recent years I've noticed just generally. Even the way pro wrestling has entered the larger conversations again in the last decade fit into it, being something that straddles both sports and entertainment is indicative of this. I think it started when SportsCenter did the funny commercials and people just watched to see which jocks were on and who had the best line of the night, more than just the news about games.

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hearthesilence
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Re: Passages

#10 Post by hearthesilence » Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:36 am

Lemmy Caution wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:49 am
hearthesilence wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 6:58 pm
Luke M wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:32 pm
I was lucky enough to see Kobe play in-person during a Finals game. I always rooted against the Lakers but I think even those who did had a ton of respect for his game. Closest we had to MJ after MJ.
LeBron is more MJ-like . . .
No, Luke is right, Kobe was a close imitation of Jordan in terms of style, athleticism, position, determination, tough on teammates, etc. Hell, even in terms of winning titles. Clearly he learned a lot from Jordan, as he often admitted. LeBron had more Magic Johnson to his game, being an elite passer rare for his size, especially early on when his shot was suspect. And in style terms, LeBJ was more physical, more of a freight train on drives than panther quick and flexible. And he was more of a leader and one of the guys in a Magic sort of way. LeBron has also played mostly as an SF and more recently as a PG, While MJ and Kobe were ball dominant G's (really combo guards paired with role playing PG's who could hit 3's or defend, both in Fisher's case). It was amazing how unique and sui generis Michael Jordan appeared to be -- an SG or any wing had never dominated as he did -- and then right on his heels Kobe come along and does damn near the same. [somewhat analogous is how Steph Curry seemed unique, and already there's Trae Young following in his footsteps. Basketball is more than most sports one of improvisation and therefore paradoxically one of imitation*].

In short, Kobe and LeBron had different bodies and different bodies of work. Overall, Kobe comes up a little short in the MJ comparison, but that's hardly a knock since MJ is widely considered the greatest basketball player ever. But Kobe amazingly came close in terms of style of play and results. LeBron comes closer to Jordan in terms of overall accomplishments and arguably could top Jordan as the greatest player ever. Really only those lost Finals holding him back from a clear claim of GOAT. LBJ will retire Top 3 all time in scoring (he's there now just having past Kobe the other day) and Top 3 all-time in assists, with a chance to finish 2nd in both (and Kareem's record isn't out of the question).

Kobe had a great career. Played hard and tough-minded. Had rare all-around talent. Kept the Laker legacy alive (and boosted Jerry West's formidable reputation). He also seemed to have a lot of projects and was poised for an interesting post-retirement career. Was just 41 with a 1 year baby. Led a great life on his own terms, and became famous enough to be known the world over by one name.


* I can document how I stole my spin move from Antoine Walker and Jamal Mashburn; my floater from Tony Parker, weak side rebounding courtesy of Larry Bird, overhead release from Jamaal Wilkes, my turnaround J from Paul Pierce, etc. In my young days I had a Kareem hook and a Dr. J finger roll I can still whip out on rare occasions.
Clearly a much better argument than anything I could make to counter it. I was skeptical mainly because Jordan's persona seemed to overwhelmingly dominate the Bulls and the NBA, similar to LeBron at his peak whereas Kobe didn't quite reach that level and even seemed overshadowed by Shaq when they were teammates...but that isn't a technical argument at all and it's really broad impressions I had growing up. And I probably shouldn't dwell on it because it feels extremely petty to diminish Kobe's accomplishments by trying to measure him up with other players. He was indeed a great player, and was enormously important to the NBA. It's very sad and strange to see the teenager I remember entering the NBA at 17 dying so young.

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hearthesilence
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Re: Kobe Bryant (1978-2020)

#11 Post by hearthesilence » Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:45 am

Jack Nicholson in a phone interview:

“My reaction is the same as almost all of L.A. Where everything was solid, there’s just a hole in the wall...

"I remember him in totality as just how great a player he was. But you know I teased him the first time we met. It was in the Garden in New York and I offered him a basketball and asked him if he wanted me to autograph it for him. He looked at me like I was crazy.”

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hearthesilence
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Re: Kobe Bryant (1978-2020)

#12 Post by hearthesilence » Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:17 pm

Posted by Spike Lee on Instagram

Also Barbara Kopple posted something on Facebook, which I'm having trouble linking to, but Bryant was apparently very supportive of her documentary on Sharon Jones.

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Lemmy Caution
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Re: Passages

#13 Post by Lemmy Caution » Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:27 pm

hearthesilence wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:36 am
Jordan's persona seemed to overwhelmingly dominate the Bulls and the NBA, similar to LeBron at his peak whereas Kobe didn't quite reach that level and even seemed overshadowed by Shaq when they were teammates...but that isn't a technical argument at all and it's really broad impressions I had growing up. It's very sad and strange to see the teenager I remember entering the NBA at 17 dying so young.
I think that is accurate. Jordan was a trendsetter. Suddenly everyone was shaving their heads and wearing baggy shorts in imitation (and later wearing diamond earrings and smoking cigars). Maybe only matched by Iverson who had a significant cultural impact with his hiphop stylings and cornrows. And of course there was the remarkable synergy with Nike and the Air Jordan brand. Business MJ is pretty well unmatched. Reportedly they tried to use Kobe's profile in much the way that Jordan's distinctive jumpman silhouette became a global icon, but couldn't get anything to click and gave up.

Still Kobe became the dominant face of the NBA for over a decade, and was hugely popular overseas. Here in China, Kobe was has been popular than Lebron, and I probably still see as many Kobe jerseys as LBJ's today. Last year after every NBA game replay the Shanghai sports station would for some reason show a 3 min video clip of every basket Kobe scored in his 81 point game (lotta FT's).

Kobe was drafted and signed his first NBA contract at age 17, straight out of high school. Being under 18, his parents were required to jointly sign his contract. But he started to play in the NBA two months after turning 18. Kobe was so young that during I believe his 4th NBA season at age 21, already an NBA all-star, Kobe would pick up 17 year old Vanessa from high school in his Cadillac Escalade. He met her on a Snoop Dogg video shoot, where she was a background dancer.

Kobe was actually drafted by the Charlotte Hornets and the Lakers shewdly traded quality center Vlade Divacs for Kobe's rights. Thus cementing the GM legacy of Jerry West, who thought Kobe was special. On the Lakers, Shaq was already in his dominant prime and a teenage Kobe took a couple years to adjust, but soon enough Kobe was fighting for equal billing with Shaq. There are advantages to being a ballhandler, rather than a post brute who needs someone to feed him the ball. But Shaq was just such a dominant force before the NBA adjusted the rules to phase out big man post play, so those were mostly Shaq's teams. Shaq & Kobe equal on the best NBA duos ever, but their alpha male struggles eventually led to the break-up of their threepeat dynasty. The Lakers smartly sticking with the younger Kobe, who was a workaholic and often accused Shaq of being lazy and out of shape. What really cemented Kobe's legacy was being the clear lead dog on the Lakers team that won two titles. Those were thoroughly Kobe's teams and he led the Lakers to a pair of titles. Out from under Shaq's large shadow, and into the stratosphere.

Kobe had great natural talent, but maybe a lot of folks don't realize how hard Kobe and Jordan and LeBron worked at their game and conditioning. Kobe was the type of guy that other players would say they knew they had to be in the gym practicing, because if they weren't they knew Kobe was and he'd gain an advantage. Kobe had a legendary drive which he was transferring to his numerous retirement projects.

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Lemmy Caution
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Re: Kobe Bryant (1978-2020)

#14 Post by Lemmy Caution » Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:54 pm

In a nice tribute a few teams started the game with 24 second violations in honor of Kobe's #24.
That is, the team that won the opening tip just held the ball until the shot clock expired. Then their opponent did the same.

Apparently Kyrie Irving came to MSG and warmed up but when he learned of Kobe's death he left the arena and didn't play. Supposedly he was close with Kobe.

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hearthesilence
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Re: Passages

#15 Post by hearthesilence » Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:03 pm

Lemmy Caution wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:27 pm
Kobe had great natural talent, but maybe a lot of folks don't realize how hard Kobe and Jordan and LeBron worked at their game and conditioning. Kobe was the type of guy that other players would say they knew they had to be in the gym practicing, because if they weren't they knew Kobe was and he'd gain an advantage. Kobe had a legendary drive which he was transferring to his numerous retirement projects.
Absolutely. As a kid it wasn't something I put much thought into until Jordan's comeback. I think it was pretty well known locally, but when Jordan came back mid-season and the Bulls lost to Shaq and the Orlando Magic, he worked out like hell during the off-season, and it wasn't like he had been taking it easy during his regular training.

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hearthesilence
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Re: Kobe Bryant (1978-2020)

#16 Post by hearthesilence » Tue Jan 28, 2020 5:59 pm

The Oscars ceremony will honor Kobe Bryant, but no word on how just yet.

FWIW, here's the group photo from the Oscar nominee luncheon from early 2018. Always fun to see people from different corners of the filmmaking world mingling, especially this year with Kobe Bryant, Common, Steve James, Steven Spielberg, and even Agnès Varda's cutout, etc., etc.

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Re: Kobe Bryant (1978-2020)

#17 Post by bearcuborg » Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:04 pm

I didn't want to quote TMZ after the shitty thing they did...journalism 101, only a doctor can pronounce death. For the family members of all on board to hear it that way is awful. Prior to this story, I only had a superficial knowledge of their work - but this tells me all I need to know about them.

So with Kobe, I had two thoughts... One of the rape allegations, which I was shocked to see brought up by various news outlets (though absent from ESPN) and done so tastefully. It sure seems like he was pretty guilty - but people are complicated and I'm glad this was put into perspective with how he carried himself after that incident. The other thing I thought, and I don't know how much this was covered, was that, in a way, LA traffic killed Kobe...

I haven't spent a lot of time with the NBA since Jordan retired. So I didn't have this emotional connection with him...but I have to admit, he took that "I wanna be like Mike" commercial to heart. So often, folks say they want to carve out a style of their own, but Kobe didn't seem to care that he was obviously copying Jordan. His work ethic indicates he would have succeeded in any era - but his crazy shots made/attempted ratio, often under insanely contested situations seem to be the exact thing *today’s players are taught to avoid. The "Kobe assist" where his misses gave his teammates ample offensive rebound/put back opportunities being an example. I never saw anyone close to Jordan, but Kobe certainly made his mark... I never knew he gave himself his own nickname...what a character, lol.

From a Philly perspective I really enjoyed hearing from Sonny Hill, a local basketball legend. Sonny runs a basketball academy and apart from playing with some of the legends of the game, used to have a radio show on a local sports station. Even as a kid, according to Sonny, Kobe had a 5am type of practice mentality! Also, if you guys can find it, Jack Nicholson talked with a local LA sports guy. It's just the audio, but it was nice to hear from Jack again - unfortunately it had to come under these circumstances.
Last edited by bearcuborg on Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Kobe Bryant (1978-2020)

#18 Post by mfunk9786 » Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:02 pm

Why does blame lie with TMZ and not the authorities who leaked it to them instead of doing their jobs and contacting the families involved?

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Re: Kobe Bryant (1978-2020)

#19 Post by knives » Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:24 pm

Can't it lie with both?

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hearthesilence
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Re: Kobe Bryant (1978-2020)

#20 Post by hearthesilence » Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:33 pm

FWIW, TMZ's Harvey Levin said someone in the police force gave them a tip (presumably without their superiors knowing).

He then argued that they contacted Bryant's reps first, and after "an hour" of wrangling, it was confirmed to them that Bryant's immediate family had been informed of what happened (via TMZ's call or the police I'm not sure), and it was only then that they went with the story, which was published about 90 minutes after the crash.

However, it was suggested that going forward with the story was unfair to the others who perished in the crash, as their relatives were certainly not notified (and may have known they were with Bryant in the helicopter beforehand), and Levin didn't have much of a response to that except "good point, good point..."

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Re: Kobe Bryant (1978-2020)

#21 Post by bearcuborg » Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:47 am

Yeah, I feel like TMZ could have worked with authorities, letting them tell the family members first, then breaking the story. In any case, who will remember who broke the story of someone’s death? It’s not like they blew the lid off of some scandal.

I had this cynical feeling that the NBA had allowed Kobe to go out with 60pts in a win for his last game. But ESPN ran the game in full the day after and I’ll be damned-it’s a thrilling game, despite knowing the outcome. Up until the late 4th I didn’t think Kobe would pull it off. Utah definitely didn’t give anything up.

I’ll watch tonight’s game. In a way, rescheduling The Clippers game gives The Lakers a more winnable game against Portland.

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Re: Kobe Bryant (1978-2020)

#22 Post by Adam » Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:36 pm

The helicopter went down about 9:45 am. I was driving to meet my brother and niece and aunt for breakfast in Tarzana, about 6 miles east of Calabasas. When I arrived at the place at about 10:25 am, my brother greeted me by showing me an alert on his phone saying that Bryant was feared lost in a helicopter crash, and I believe it even said that it was "reported by TMZ". Significantly less than 90 minutes after the crash, unless I'm confusing the crash time, which I don't believe I am. It was also already clear that the posting had been out for a couple of minutes, as people in the restaurant were already looking at the phones, mouths agape.
Last edited by Adam on Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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hearthesilence
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Re: Kobe Bryant (1978-2020)

#23 Post by hearthesilence » Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:02 pm

Adam wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:36 pm
The helicopter went down about 9:45 am. I was driving to meet my brother and niece and aunt for breakfast in Tarzana, about 6 miles west of Calabasas. When I arrived at the place at about 10:25 am, my brother greeted me by showing me an alert on his phone saying that Bryant was feared lost in a helicopter crash, and I believe it even said that it was "reported by TMZ". Significantly less than 90 minutes after the crash, unless I'm confusing the crash time, which I don't believe I am. It was also already clear that the posting had been out for a couple of minutes, as people in the restaurant were already looking at the phones, mouths agape.
Damn. I had to check to be sure, but reports claim it was 11:24 a.m. PST. That's a pretty big slip-up.

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Luke M
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Re: Kobe Bryant (1978-2020)

#24 Post by Luke M » Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:32 am

bearcuborg wrote:Yeah, I feel like TMZ could have worked with authorities, letting them tell the family members first, then breaking the story. In any case, who will remember who broke the story of someone’s death? It’s not like they blew the lid off of some scandal.

I had this cynical feeling that the NBA had allowed Kobe to go out with 60pts in a win for his last game. But ESPN ran the game in full the day after and I’ll be damned-it’s a thrilling game, despite knowing the outcome. Up until the late 4th I didn’t think Kobe would pull it off. Utah definitely didn’t give anything up.

I’ll watch tonight’s game. In a way, rescheduling The Clippers game gives The Lakers a more winnable game against Portland.
Dame Lillard really spoiled it. Amazing performance.

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