The Indiana Jones Franchise (Steven Spielberg/James Mangold, 1981-2021)

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mfunk9786
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Re: The Indiana Jones Franchise (Steven Spielberg, 1981-2019

#476 Post by mfunk9786 » Wed Mar 16, 2016 3:36 pm

knives wrote:Though he did do that Michael Shannon bicycle movie Premium Rush which got some pretty positive notice.
It was one of the more forgettable movies of recent years, but yes, was actually pretty good. Primarily because Joseph Gordon-Levitt is a really charming screen presence.

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colinr0380
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Re: The Indiana Jones Franchise (Steven Spielberg, 1981-2019

#477 Post by colinr0380 » Wed Mar 16, 2016 6:58 pm

Not to make this all about David Koepp, but his writer's commentary track with 'special guest' William Goldman on Panic Room is a great listen, especially the idea brought up that Koepp had apparently initially wanted everything to be set inside the one building with no outside scenes whatsoever to increase the claustrophobic atmosphere of the film. In some ways that seems to be where Koepp appears to be most in his element, with smaller, intense chamber pieces like Stir of Echoes, Secret Window, Apartment Zero or even the time-constrained Premium Rush rather than with more sprawling material.

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Finch
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Re: The Indiana Jones Franchise (Steven Spielberg, 1981-2019

#478 Post by Finch » Fri Mar 18, 2016 5:44 am

The script for Indy 4 was really a patchwork of many different ideas which is why, for example, the FBI angle gets introduced and then leads nowhere. Figures it's the one script Lucas gave his blessing to.

I hope Spielberg asks Lawrence Kasdan to pen the new script and that Lucas has the good sense to approve it (the Darabont script Indy and the City of the Gods was apparently quite good but Lucas vetoed it).

Had the same experience like domino with Last Crusade; it really is a tedious film and the people who cherish it so much because of Sean Connery really ought to give it another look.

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DarkImbecile
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Re: The Indiana Jones Franchise (Steven Spielberg, 1981-2019

#479 Post by DarkImbecile » Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:42 pm


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aox
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Re: The Indiana Jones Franchise (Steven Spielberg, 1981-2019

#480 Post by aox » Fri Mar 18, 2016 5:22 pm

DarkImbecile wrote:...Aaaand there he is.
Perhaps if Lucas isn't running the show, maybe it still has a chance of being alright?


dda1996a
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Re: The Indiana Jones Franchise (Steven Spielberg, 1981-2019

#482 Post by dda1996a » Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:28 am

This isn't even the last time this has happened, there was evidence connecting Inception to Uncle Scrooge as well!

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chiendent
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Re: The Indiana Jones Franchise (Steven Spielberg, 1981-2019

#483 Post by chiendent » Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:55 am

George Lucas even wrote a brief introduction to one of the Fantagraphics volumes (which I can't recommend highly enough).


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Finch
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Re: The Indiana Jones Franchise (Steven Spielberg/James Mangold, 1981-2021)

#485 Post by Finch » Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:09 pm

Mangold is okay, I guess. Jonathan Kasdan though wrote an awful script for Solo. I wish they'd asked Rian Johnson to do writing duties.

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Re: The Indiana Jones Franchise (Steven Spielberg/James Mangold, 1981-2021)

#486 Post by Reverend Drewcifer » Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:42 pm

Pretty sure Johnson will not write for anything he isn't directing himself.

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Finch
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Re: The Indiana Jones Franchise (Steven Spielberg/James Mangold, 1981-2021)

#487 Post by Finch » Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:58 pm

You're probably right, and I get it in that the screenplays I write for myself, I want to direct myself, and it's entirely up to Johnson if he wants to write on commission or not, but if he did, and with the leverage he has, he could conceivably get a substantial amount for a script "for hire" and, if he was so inclined, stick that in a funding pot for his passion projects. But yeah, he probably feels that a) he has enough original projects on his plate and b) doesn't want to write on spec anyway.

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Brian C
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Re: The Indiana Jones Franchise (Steven Spielberg/James Mangold, 1981-2021)

#488 Post by Brian C » Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:16 pm

I like Mangold for this actually, he has a slightly old-fashioned style that I think would suit Indiana Jones. I thought it was clear from Crystal Skull that Spielberg's interest in the whole Indy ethos had waned, and there seems to be little point in trying to reinvent the wheel for Indiana Jones 5, so someone like Mangold seems like an appropriate and relatively high-end choice. So today I want to see a new Indy movie slightly more than I did yesterday ... progress.

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Re: The Indiana Jones Franchise (Steven Spielberg/James Mangold, 1981-2021)

#489 Post by Monterey Jack » Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:58 pm

I'm all for a fresh directorial voice in this series...provided they re-cast the title role, as seeing a gimpy, 80-year-old Harrison Ford back in the costume would depress me greatly. We've had six 007s, so another Indy will be accepted provided they get a good actor for it. Hell, Ford wasn't even the original choice (Tom Selleck screen-tested for the role, and I would love to see that alternate-universe version of Raiders). Chris Pratt has the right brash sense of humor, but lacks Ford's gravitas. I'm sure a talent search would turn up hundreds of actors who would love to slap that fedora on.

Spielberg was attached to what would eventually become The Mask Of Zorro for a big chunk of the 80's and 90's, but handed it over to Martin Campbell, and, honestly, what's a better post-80's Indiana Jones movie...that, or Kingdom Of The Crystal Skull? Spielberg is still a great filmmaker, but he's not the same filmmaker who did the Indy films in the 80's. Hell, even Last Crusade was pretty bland and by-the-numbers compared to the first two films, both of which possessed a wild, adolescent energy that can only come from a filmmaker before he has children and settles down for "respectable" fare.

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Re: The Indiana Jones Franchise (Steven Spielberg/James Mangold, 1981-2021)

#490 Post by Nasir007 » Thu Feb 27, 2020 12:34 am

Spielberg remains one of our very great action film-makers. His sense of staging, blocking, mis-en-scene and cutting is almost the best since John Ford when it comes to staging actions. Even Crystal Skull has that ridiculous but ridiculously fun jungle chase sequence.

My main concern would be - is John Williams coming back?

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Re: The Indiana Jones Franchise (Steven Spielberg/James Mangold, 1981-2021)

#491 Post by Monterey Jack » Thu Feb 27, 2020 12:36 am

Williams' work on the recent Disney Star Wars music lacked his old sparkle, sad to say. Even his Crystal Skull score wasn't a patch on his 80's stuff. I'd rather have Williams score this than almost anyone else, but the man is past his prime.

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Re: The Indiana Jones Franchise (Steven Spielberg/James Mangold, 1981-2021)

#492 Post by Nasir007 » Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:47 am

I disagree. I think Williams work on the sequel trilogy is by and large outstanding with a wealth of memorable new thematic material and beautiful scoring throughout. The films have treated his work like shit - cutting it to shreds. But his work is above reproach. I still think he's just as vital today - churning out extraordinary work at his advanced age, work that simply by its technical proficiency stands head and shoulders above of most of the music being written for the movies today.

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Re: The Indiana Jones Franchise (Steven Spielberg/James Mangold, 1981-2021)

#493 Post by colinr0380 » Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:44 am

Monterey Jack wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:58 pm
I'm all for a fresh directorial voice in this series...provided they re-cast the title role, as seeing a gimpy, 80-year-old Harrison Ford back in the costume would depress me greatly. We've had six 007s, so another Indy will be accepted provided they get a good actor for it. Hell, Ford wasn't even the original choice (Tom Selleck screen-tested for the role, and I would love to see that alternate-universe version of Raiders). Chris Pratt has the right brash sense of humor, but lacks Ford's gravitas. I'm sure a talent search would turn up hundreds of actors who would love to slap that fedora on.
I was just assuming that Shia LaBoeuf would be inheriting the mantle of being the new Indy, something that amusingly got played with in the final scene of Crystal Skull with Harrison Ford stealing his hat back!

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Re: The Indiana Jones Franchise (Steven Spielberg/James Mangold, 1981-2021)

#494 Post by Monterey Jack » Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:34 am

Nasir007 wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:47 am
I disagree. I think Williams work on the sequel trilogy is by and large outstanding with a wealth of memorable new thematic material and beautiful scoring throughout. The films have treated his work like shit - cutting it to shreds. But his work is above reproach. I still think he's just as vital today - churning out extraordinary work at his advanced age, work that simply by its technical proficiency stands head and shoulders above of most of the music being written for the movies today.
I mean, compared to most of the garbage that passes for film "music" these days, I'd take Williams any day of the week, but his Star Wars and Indiana Jones work in the 80's was noteworthy for how individual cues would be meticulously molded to the contours of the scenes they accompanied to the point where they practically functioned as stand-alone concert pieces (I love "Bug Tunnel and Death Trap" from Temple Of Doom). In Crystal Skull and the SW prequels and sequels, his music often is used like ketchup, glopped over scenes so that there's a constant sense of frantic motion, but just lacking an overall narrative shape. It's impeccably well-orchestrated, of course, but any individual cue in the SW movies from the last 20 years is often interchangeable from scene-to-scene, leaning heavily on fanservice quotations of established themes instead of allowing those quotations to build organically from a rigorously structured framework of new thematic material. Compare Williams' scoring for the truck chase in Raiders to his scoring for the jungle chase in Crystal Skull, and you'll see what I mean. The former is a coherent piece of music with a definitive opening, middle section and ending, whereas the later just flails about, hitting all of the individual flourishes without shaping the overall scene's narrative ebb and flow.

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Finch
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Re: The Indiana Jones Franchise (Steven Spielberg/James Mangold, 1981-2021)

#495 Post by Finch » Thu Feb 27, 2020 2:11 pm

Monterey Jack wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:58 pm
Chris Pratt has the right brash sense of humor, but lacks Ford's gravitas.
God please, anybody but Chris Pratt. I think Bradley Cooper was once considered but I don't like him either. Too smooth, too perfect.

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Re: The Indiana Jones Franchise (Steven Spielberg/James Mangold, 1981-2021)

#496 Post by solaris72 » Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:18 pm

Nasir007 wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:47 am
I disagree. I think Williams work on the sequel trilogy is by and large outstanding with a wealth of memorable new thematic material and beautiful scoring throughout. The films have treated his work like shit - cutting it to shreds. But his work is above reproach. I still think he's just as vital today - churning out extraordinary work at his advanced age, work that simply by its technical proficiency stands head and shoulders above of most of the music being written for the movies today.
Agreed, the score is almost the only good thing about episode 9.

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Re: The Indiana Jones Franchise (Steven Spielberg/James Mangold, 1981-2021)

#497 Post by Nasir007 » Fri Feb 28, 2020 8:36 am

Monterey Jack wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:34 am
Nasir007 wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:47 am
I disagree. I think Williams work on the sequel trilogy is by and large outstanding with a wealth of memorable new thematic material and beautiful scoring throughout. The films have treated his work like shit - cutting it to shreds. But his work is above reproach. I still think he's just as vital today - churning out extraordinary work at his advanced age, work that simply by its technical proficiency stands head and shoulders above of most of the music being written for the movies today.
I mean, compared to most of the garbage that passes for film "music" these days, I'd take Williams any day of the week, but his Star Wars and Indiana Jones work in the 80's was noteworthy for how individual cues would be meticulously molded to the contours of the scenes they accompanied to the point where they practically functioned as stand-alone concert pieces (I love "Bug Tunnel and Death Trap" from Temple Of Doom). In Crystal Skull and the SW prequels and sequels, his music often is used like ketchup, glopped over scenes so that there's a constant sense of frantic motion, but just lacking an overall narrative shape. It's impeccably well-orchestrated, of course, but any individual cue in the SW movies from the last 20 years is often interchangeable from scene-to-scene, leaning heavily on fanservice quotations of established themes instead of allowing those quotations to build organically from a rigorously structured framework of new thematic material. Compare Williams' scoring for the truck chase in Raiders to his scoring for the jungle chase in Crystal Skull, and you'll see what I mean. The former is a coherent piece of music with a definitive opening, middle section and ending, whereas the later just flails about, hitting all of the individual flourishes without shaping the overall scene's narrative ebb and flow.
I agree with you here. And I actually think the evolution of film-making itself is to blame for a lot of these. Action has gotten much more frenetic over the decades. The action scenes today cut a lot, helter skelter and here and there. The pace of cutting has increased simply as a reaction to how people consume information on youtube or Instagram and how attention spans have reduced.

I think this film-making approach is essentially antithetical to golden age film-scoring. You can barely get in a note of a character melody before the action has cut to another character and something else. Williams tries valiantly but the directors fail him constantly. Take ep 9. JJ fiddled with the cut so much that he kept recutting scenes even after Williams had scored them multiple times. There's only so much he can do.

There is also modern technology. When you can now edit major motion pictures on literally a laptop and the digital assembly means the cut can go from your laptop to theaters in less than a day, there is all the more imperative for directors to keep fiddling with their cuts. What can't catch up is a film score. Because it has to be written, orchestrated, assemble an orchestra, book a recording hall, practice and then record and then be mixed into the film. Atleast for actual film scoring. For the soundscape suite like film scoring today, just write a damn suite and the editor will apply it like wallpaper.

But for JW's style, he very carefully times his music to basically cuts or individual things in the scenes. Only Spielberg still seems capable of handling a JW score properly. All other film-makers tear it to shreds.

As for whether JW can still write coherent pieces to support entire sequences - we have the lovely and tragic example of Speeder Chase from Ep 9. What a glorious cue, with its own individual theme like Asteroid Field in Ep 5 or Basket Chase in Indy 1. But in the movie it is absolutely butchered by JJ.

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Re: The Indiana Jones Franchise (Steven Spielberg/James Mangold, 1981-2021)

#498 Post by The Fanciful Norwegian » Fri Feb 28, 2020 12:29 pm

The recasting speculation seems way premature. Granted, a week ago I doubt anyone thought Spielberg wouldn't be directing this, so everything's subject to change⁠—but Ford has been doing interviews for The Call of the Wild and it's been literally just a few days since he talked about doing Indy 5 in the near future. Looking over his recent comments it also appears he hasn't actually mentioned Spielberg, so I'm sure he knew what was coming.

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Re: The Indiana Jones Franchise (Steven Spielberg/James Mangold, 1981-2021)

#499 Post by Monterey Jack » Fri Feb 28, 2020 2:33 pm

Nasir007 wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 8:36 am
I agree with you here. And I actually think the evolution of film-making itself is to blame for a lot of these. Action has gotten much more frenetic over the decades. The action scenes today cut a lot, helter skelter and here and there. The pace of cutting has increased simply as a reaction to how people consume information on youtube or Instagram and how attention spans have reduced.
The sad thing is, movies like Star Wars and Raiders were considered short-attention-span Action Porn by a lot of critics when they were originally released (Paulene Kael referred to the former as "A Box of Cracker Jack that is all prizes"), and yet both films seem positively sedate by today's razzamatazz MCU style of action/adventure filmmaking, where everything is constantly moving, every character communicates in sarcastic quips instead of actually talking to each other, and the soundtrack is drenched in such non-stop 5.1 audio overkill that music has to flatten itself out into a vacuum-cleaner drone just to be heard at all. It's hard to think of the last summer action blockbuster that A.) spaced out the action scenes so there could be a coherent story connecting them, and B.) had a soundtrack reasonably-mixed to allow music to speak, instead of constantly shouting over the cacophony just to be heard. A lot of the classic blockbusters scored by Williams deliberately had scenes where he did not write music, knowing that it'd get obliterated by the sound effects (think of the shootout in Marion's bar in Raiders, the speeder bike chase in Return Of The Jedi, or the T-Rex scene in Jurassic Park). These days, if a movie runs 120 minutes, there'll be about 105 minutes of score, lessening its overall effectiveness.

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Re: The Indiana Jones Franchise (Steven Spielberg/James Mangold, 1981-2021)

#500 Post by thirtyframesasecond » Sat Feb 29, 2020 9:28 am

Finch wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 2:11 pm
Monterey Jack wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:58 pm
Chris Pratt has the right brash sense of humor, but lacks Ford's gravitas.
God please, anybody but Chris Pratt. I think Bradley Cooper was once considered but I don't like him either. Too smooth, too perfect.
A rebooted Indy would be one of these young guys who can't really act/open movies but might look the part - Alden Ehrenreich, Dane DeHaan, Ansel Elgort.

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