Licorice Pizza (Paul Thomas Anderson, 2021)

[domino harvey]

Deep End is a completely different film in every aspect, especially tone. Why would I ever want this movie to end like that one?

Harvest, your objections appear to amount to "I didn't like these characters," but as someone who does very much, let me elucidate: I like them because I believe in both. I believe in their flaws and their strengths. I believe they could exist, and I liked spending time with two young people who constantly surprised and delighted and yes sometimes frustrated me in their actions and interactions. These complexities make them feel real. At the end, I was surprised that the film went there, but it felt wholly earned and quite romantic. Some of the negative responses this has received tell me there's something broken in so many people, and it's as depressing as this film is delightful.

[Harvest]

Why not? I never found either of them remotely likeable (which I usually wouldn't care about, but Gary in particular is a repulsive little jerk to such a degree that it feels counterproductive for a coming-of-age film).

An un-loaded question just so I can learn more about your perspective here: What behavior(s) does Gary exhibit in the film that would lead to you referring to him as a "repulsive little jerk to such a [genre-breaking] degree"?

Asking women for handjobs, being all around charmless (there's that word again, though that's all subjective I guess) and uncharismatic to be believable as a showman/salesman, not receiving any real consequences for his actions (like smashing Peters' car) and somehow getting everything he wants in the end. I found him to be a creep, regardless of him restraining himself in one scene.

Do you think the film doesn't want us to like him or root for him?

So you're looking to relate to a youthful male protagonist who commits murder in a moment of passion, rather than one who occasionally behaves like a jerk in adolescence. What an inauthentic movie about youth this is- I'll concede that it could never meet such a compelling bar of homicide

No, I'm looking for the film to be honest, which Deep End is by not playing safe.

[domino harvey]

In the over/under of young men who impulsively commit murder vs ask a girl out, you're really going Wall Street Bets here

[Harvest]

Deep End is a completely different film in every aspect, especially tone. Why would I ever want this movie to end like that one?

Harvest, your objections appear to amount to "I didn't like these characters," but as someone who does very much, let me elucidate: I like them because I believe in both. I believe in their flaws and their strengths. I believe they could exist, and I liked spending time with two young people who constantly surprised and delighted and yes sometimes frustrated me in their actions and interactions. These complexities make them feel real. At the end, I was surprised that the film went there, but it felt wholly earned and quite romantic. Some of the negative responses this has received tell me there's something broken in so many people, and it's as depressing as this film is delightful.

I didn't believe in them for a single second, really. Frankly, his idea for the movie and the story of how he apparently came to it felt silly and ridiculous. So, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Good to know that apparently this means I'm "broken".

[mfunk9786]

I came out the other end believing it is likely PTA’s best film.

We are aligned on this, were it not for The Master routinely making a very strong case in my mind. They're 1a and 1b, the fun one and the difficult one.

[domino harvey]

Good to know that apparently this means I'm "broken".

Can I interest you in a flexible heart, or will you need Nothing to mend?

[bottlesofsmoke]

I loved this and think it is my favorite PTA film as well. I think the very things that make Gary difficult, or however you want to describe him, are what make him who he is and what I liked about his character. He’s not your traditional teenage romantic-comedy protagonist in many senses. Instead he looks and acts like I’d expect an actual teenager would, which is rare for the movies, as far as my experience. That includes some awkwardness and inappropriate behavior because that’s what teenagers do and he is still in progress of growing up. Not to mention that this movie is set in the 70s, where I’m sure teenagers had a rougher sensibility compared to what is acceptable today. I thought Gary constantly getting away with things was important, actually, because if he didn’t then he would stop and therefore wouldn’t be the character he is during the movie, someone who needs to grow up a little. There’s no accounting for whether a viewer personally likes an actor or character, but I found both leads to be utterly charming because they weren’t perfect and seemed like real people, not Hollywood real people.

I do think it’s making too much of the Haim family thing, though. Not every small side character needs a fleshed out backstory. I’d guess most people who saw the movie don’t who they were. My wife has seen every PTA movie, knows who Haim is and had no idea they were all related. I figured it was just a little joke for those who knew and completely irrelevant for those who don’t. And practically speaking, if the story called for Alana to have a family, why not just cast the actresses’ actual family? What could be more believable? I also don’t think that it is that outlandish for grown up daughters to live with their parents until they get married, especially not in the early 1970s. I thought the whole cramped awkward family dynamic just added to Alana’s character by giving her even more of a reason to be frustrated that her life is going nowhere, as she’s stuck between adolescence and adulthood, without a sister to tell her “I got out, so can you” instead it is more Gary that helps her break out of that malaise, get her to try new things.

It’s strange that this seems to be the PTA movie that is getting such a mixed response online, since it’s probably his most traditionally “accessible” movie since, I don’t know, maybe ever. I wonder if this is the turning point on PTA? The same thing that Wes Anderson and Tarentino, and others have gone through in recent years, where they still have fans but their movies get attacked more often, I’m not sure. Maybe it is just 2020s online culture, but I’ve definitely seen more dislike towards this than any PTA before.

[Harvest]

It’s strange that this seems to be the PTA movie that is getting such a mixed response online, since it’s probably his most traditionally “accessible” movie since, I don’t know, maybe ever. I wonder if this is the turning point on PTA? The same thing that Wes Anderson and Tarentino, and others have gone through in recent years, where they still have fans but their movies get attacked more often, I’m not sure. Maybe it is just 2020s online culture, but I’ve definitely seen more dislike towards this than any PTA before.

Inherent Vice was pretty disliked, no?

I haven't "turned" on him, but I'm going to wait till his next film to judge whether I'm losing interest. I think he's straining to find things to make movies about and this was his most forced effort in applying his tropes.

As far as social media, if he's disliked more these days, maybe it's partially because of the Fiona Apple stuff? Though I'd say he's gotten off extremely lightly there, all things considering.

[diamonds]

I was actually reminded of Deep End more than a few times while watching this film as well, which for me also did it no favors. In terms of coming-of-age-gap-relationship films (there's a Before & After you won't see on Wheel of Fortune), Skolimowski's masterpiece blows Licorice Pizza out of the water in every aspect: psychological acuity, visual poetry, and yes, honesty, which is intricately bound up in tone. But this of course may simply speak to my own temperament and background.

Paul Thomas Anderson is one of my least-liked filmmakers of his generation, but I enjoy Haim and felt his collaborations with them offered up a different side of him that I hoped would fruitfully inform this film. (For my money, the "Night So Long" video is the best thing he's ever done). I went in with an open mind, and was immediately intrigued by that first meet-cute in and around the auditorium. Those graceful dolly shots truly suggest for perhaps the first time the influence of Ophuls on Anderson's style, and the laid-back California slant he gives to the screwball-tinged dialog in this opening adds to a general buoyancy worlds away from his creakier, more severe films like There Will Be Blood and The Master. At this point, I (like domino) thought this would end up being his best film.

Unfortunately for me the wrongs began to accumulate from there. The aforementioned pacing is really slack, not an inherent problem if the film can generate interest with mood and character, which for detractors it obviously does not. This isn't just an observation of its overall shape; it's a slackness within scenes as well: the drawn-out casting agent scene (a sputtering, heavy-handed grotesque), the equally drawn-out diner sequence with Sean Penn and the play of gazes. (Here I was reminded of how much more brutally and creatively Skolimowski tackled the feeling of intense, overwhelming jealousy at seeing the object of one's infatuation spending time with someone else in Deep End's fire alarm sequence). Mainly, I just didn't find the film funny. Anderson is obsessed with male genitalia: Dirk Diggler, "Respect the cock," Reynolds Woodcock. Here we have: "What does your penis look like?" / "Tail o' the Cock" / silhouetted boys playing with gasoline nozzle cocks / Bradley Cooper's "penis hole" rant, the sum total of which was far more egregious to me than the hot button caricature.

Like so many of Anderson's leads, Gary is an American bullshit artist. While Alana simultaneously brags and reassures herself that she is "changing the world" with her political gig, Gary is shown to really do it using only his will. But because Anderson has constructed a sunny fantasia for himself and his leads, it means he (and eventually, she) has to buy into the bullshit; there's barely any of the tension that you have with the repulsive sides to the equally ambitious Lancaster Dodd or Daniel Plainview. And although Gary exhibits some of the typical awkwardness of a teenager, he's far away from Barry Egan, a character painfully aware at all times of his own adolescent discomfort. It all feels a bit frictionless, which I think is the missing ingredient throwing a lot of Anderson's longtime fans, rather than "momentum" (the opposite of friction!) or "plot" as some of the Reddit comments suggest—I don't think anyone would accuse Anderson's long, baggy films of being built around strong narrative drives.

I'm also a bit puzzled as to why Anderson likes to include such specific historical details in so many of his films. I've read and listened to him in many interviews over the years and he seems like an affable guy, but he's never once struck me as someone with a keen interest in or penetrating insights into the complex workings of history. Unlike his idol Robert Altman, he's a psychological filmmaker, not a sociological filmmaker. His approach to historical details here (the oil crisis and the politician) and elsewhere strikes me as being similar to Tarantino's postmodern approach to genre (and I guess history as well lately): just elements to be remixed.

I will say that at the end

SpoilerShow

the splicing-in of the running from earlier points in the film when the two are seeking each other caught me off guard emotionally, and I found it touching. And I thought Anderson handled the scene that immediately preceded it—Alana and the politician's lover sharing a moment of understanding and solidarity—just right. Beautiful moments each.

But the last line is awful in a funny way. Unlike domino, I wasn't surprised that the film went there, given the overwhelming mode of dewy-eyed puppy love. It's what I referred to earlier about Alana having to buy into the bullshit by the end. Anderson clearly shares the sentiment with Alana and expects the audience to as well. I simply don't. But I am glad others found something meaningful in the gesture.

[bottlesofsmoke]

Inherent Vice was pretty disliked, no?

I haven't "turned" on him, but I'm going to wait till his next film to judge whether I'm losing interest. I think he's straining to find things to make movies about and this was his most forced effort in applying his tropes.

As far as social media, if he's disliked more these days, maybe it's partially because of the Fiona Apple stuff? Though I'd say he's gotten off extremely lightly there, all things considering.

I was referring more to that (and other) reddit threads and things I've seen on social media.

As for Inherent Vice, that felt off-beat enough that it was excused or dismissed but without much vitriol, whereas Licorice Pizza seems like it's right in the wheelhouse of PTA fans, and a certain subset of movie fans in general, but after the initial wave of enthusiasm, much of what I've seen has been negative, though I may be lumping in the "inappropriate relationship" thread as well. Mank felt the same way for David Fincher. I dunno, it just seems different now, but like I said that just may be the nature of the internet these days.

[therewillbeblus]

As far as social media, if he's disliked more these days, maybe it's partially because of the Fiona Apple stuff? Though I'd say he's gotten off extremely lightly there, all things considering.

Totally, people can’t grow or change and shouldn’t be allowed to rehabilitate across a third of their lifetime. They should just kill women in swimming pools and get it over with, and certainly not evolve like the characters do over the course of this movie. What a load of licorice

[Harvest]

I was actually reminded of Deep End more than a few times while watching this film as well, which for me also did it no favors. In terms of coming-of-age-gap-relationship films (there's a Before & After you won't see on Wheel of Fortune), Skowlimowski's masterpiece blows Licorice Pizza out of the water in every aspect: psychological acuity, visual poetry, and yes, honesty, which is intricately bound up in tone. But this of course may simply speak to my own temperament and background.

Agreed completely.

Mainly, I just didn't find the film funny. Anderson is obsessed with male genitalia: Dirk Diggler, "Respect the cock," Reynolds Woodcock. Here we have: "What does your penis look like?" / "Tail o' the Cock" / silhouetted boys playing with gasoline nozzle cocks / Bradley Cooper's "penis hole" rant, the sum total of which was far more egregious to me than the hot button caricature.

This as well.

Totally, people can’t grow or change and shouldn’t be allowed to rehabilitate across a third of their lifetime. They should just kill women in swimming pools and get it over with, and certainly not evolve like the characters do over the course of this movie. What a load of licorice

What a weird response. And on a subject that I suspect you really don't want to get into.

[furbicide]

I came out the other end believing it is likely PTA’s best film.

We are aligned on this, were it not for The Master routinely making a very strong case in my mind. They're 1a and 1b, the fun one and the difficult one.

Same here! I never much liked PTA's work (with the caveat that I haven't yet seen Hard Eight, Inherent Vice or Phantom Thread), but for me The Master and Licorice Pizza are the two generally great films of his that tower above the rest.

Also, the comparison to Deep End is pretty superficial imo – but if we must put them side by side, Licorice Pizza feels like a fantasy bound to a very specific time, place and culture that I barely relate to in any way, and yet it still feels way more human in every respect than Skolimowski's film.

[Never Cursed]

Same here! I never much liked PTA's work (with the caveat that I haven't yet seen Hard Eight, Inherent Vice or Phantom Thread), but for me The Master and Licorice Pizza are the two generally great films of his that tower above the rest.

If Licorice Pizza is top-tier PTA for you (as it is for me), you should see Inherent Vice immediately, unless you know you don't like Pynchon. Different genre and with more polished dialogue, but otherwise a similar approach/milieu

[furbicide]

Great, thanks for the recommendation! I skipped it at the time in part due to the mixed critical response it received, but if that's the case then my interest is piqued.

[therewillbeblus]

Totally, people can’t grow or change and shouldn’t be allowed to rehabilitate across a third of their lifetime. They should just kill women in swimming pools and get it over with, and certainly not evolve like the characters do over the course of this movie. What a load of licorice

What a weird response. And on a subject that I suspect you really don't want to get into.

I really don't understand the logic behind your criticisms and appraisals of the respective films, so yes, making a puerile response to match what I'm hearing. And think again- I've recorded more thoughts on this subject on this forum than any other single topic, and you can look for them if you really want to, though there are several threads that are more appropriate for that kind of discussion than here

[therewillbeblus]

Same here! I never much liked PTA's work (with the caveat that I haven't yet seen Hard Eight, Inherent Vice or Phantom Thread), but for me The Master and Licorice Pizza are the two generally great films of his that tower above the rest.

If Licorice Pizza is top-tier PTA for you (as it is for me), you should see Inherent Vice immediately, unless you know you don't like Pynchon. Different genre and with more polished dialogue, but otherwise a similar approach/milieu

I'm not so sure about that (re: feelings for Pynchon influencing love for PTA's adaption)- and not only because Pynchon essentially writes two kinds of novel, so one could feasibly hate him in Gravity's Rainbow/Mason & Dixon mode, but like him in Vineland/Inherent Vice mode. I liked this before I read any Pynchon and after consuming just one Pynchon book (not this source text, which was the last Pynchon I read), I "got" this in a way I couldn't have without that context. But even if I did't like his writing, I think I still would have loved this with that context, as its operating on his ethos with the film grammar, but in an incredibly cinematic manner that becomes its own thing entirely. I've reached a point where Inherent Vice might pull in second behind Licorice Pizza as his best, and there was a time where I felt it was hands-down his worst. O' those days of being a Gary Valentine..

[Harvest]

I really don't understand the logic behind your criticisms and appraisals of the respective films, so yes, making a puerile response to match what I'm hearing. And think again- I've recorded more thoughts on this subject on this forum than any other single topic, and you can look for them if you really want to, though there are several threads that are more appropriate for that kind of discussion than here

I'm not the only one who's made the comparison between the films, not just on this forum but elsewhere. And I've only seen a couple of posts made about the subject. But point me to the right thread and we can discuss that there.

[domino harvey]

[rrenault]

Here's my piece on the film:

https://remyrenault.com/2022/08/24/comi ... ice-pizza/

[therewillbeblus]

There are two moments in the film where Hoffman delicately goes in to make a move on Haim. At one moment they are sitting on a table, and we get to see the moment their knees touch. Later on, they are on a waterbed, and stares at her waistline, which has been minimally exposed. Those frenetic moments as a teenager where you are discovering your body, your sexuality, and have these urges are so beautifully shown in this film. I don't think I've ever seen a film which so perfectly made me feel the way Hoffman is feeling in those moments, and the confusion that stems from them.

I just realized that the shot in this scene, when Gary is hypervigilantly-lucid -actively trying to engage with Alana on the waterbed with all the tangible corporeal passion one person can have for another- is near-identical (down to the angle) of Phoenix lying half-drunk, passed out next to the fake sand-woman in The Master (after he's serviced himself in the corner of the beach)



I know I argued this as a simplified-worldview answer to Phantom Thread's weathered-relationship complexity, shedding the obstacles to locate the possibility in embracing the honest clarity of our genuine feelings - but this comparison with Quell and Dodd's incompatible and fatalistic lonelinesses might be even more drastic and affirming

[pianocrash]

I got this earlier as a surface reading, as a majority of the content of Licorice Pizza does feel like a PT Anderson's Greatest Hits programme (Wings Greatest, perhaps), with visually specific nods to all of his previous films (all the more fun figuring it out, the better). I totally understand that this type of behavior could also be reduced to boomerism/nostalgia for the sake of, at worst, but due to the content & the cast at hand (majority of which are friends & family), it makes the most sense as a kind of biography of his own filmography, which probably isn't a new concept, but one that few have probably executed this well.

[therewillbeblus]

I prefer to look at it more thematically as a "yes - and" attitude, where PTA isn't disqualifying the more complex and cynical philosophical and psychosocial examinations he's engaged in with past films, but presenting an alternative on a new spiritual plane. I do think he's tapping into something akin to nostalgia but more 'active', with a potential for change in the present, a 'remembering when' where he's able to relatively adjust the forced maturation we've endured as adults to a simpler attitude in a time of amplified sensory and emotional surges in youth prior to that desensitization. The shift optimistically posits that this is still a possible attitude to tap into and hold regardless of where we are, if we choose to remove self-constructed obstacles that we perceive as historically ingrained and outside of our control. This differentiates from The Master and Phantom Thread in particular, which stresses that these dynamics and personalities must be accepted as what - to some extent irreversibly- 'is', and then creatively navigate from there in order to yield personal and collective growth. But in the spirit of Alana’s revelation in the third act, it doesn’t need to be an ‘either/or’ two-dimensional binary choice - both can be true under different circumstances.

I often see nostalgia as a longing for the past, a state that emphasizes some degree of (at times diminutive) suffering as we are forced to sit with the lack of control we possess to access those memories and feelings in the present. This film seems to be doing the opposite - PTA realizing we actually possess far more control than we allow ourselves to believe when feeling stuck in faux-fatalistic cognitive-emotional states without a road map, only to discover the key isn’t to see it as a complicated map but to just remove the algae weighing your rod down and trust your gut. So it's not a situation where he's Freddy Quell passed out on the beach next to a sandwoman, dreaming of a simpler time when he could actualize himself with the real thing, but a self-possessed sober moment where he wakes up as Quell on the beach and goes to see Doris and then pivots from there to engage with the world more fully. I do think, optimistically, that Quell is doing this in some compromised form in the end here, but the philosophically-sown narrative is not simple around that choice in The Master, and the change in worldview in Licorice Pizza is that compromise may not be as necessarily heavy as we think in all instances.

Perhaps PTA had to navigate through the muck in his own journey through this film to realize the simplicity as exemplified by the motorcycle ride scene, which strips the complexity of The Master into the ethos of Licorice Pizza impermanently, only to gravitate back to some mud as we are often destined to do. And the cycle repeats in Phantom Thread - neither film is pessimistic, but optimistic and life-affirming under certain conditions, with the conditions themselves validated as challenging and full of vulnerable ache. They are incredibly rich films for weighing these together so poetically. Licorice Pizza seems to wonder if we can live in the life-affirming state for longer, as long as an 'all that matters is now' attitude is shared between two connected souls. As I said on first impression, it's a nice antidote to the others, but doesn't dismiss them at all.