James Bond Franchise (1962-∞)

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jon
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#51 Post by jon » Sat Nov 18, 2006 1:10 pm

Hmm, I guess that works for me. Really, I was wondering more what it would have been like with everything as top notch as in the actual film as well as having Sean Connery as Bond(still interested in the role). But yah, I guess in reality, if Connery was on board, it probably wouldn't have turned out the way it did because there would have been more of a reliance on Connery, rather than the lack of reliance on Lazenby.

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colinr0380
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#52 Post by colinr0380 » Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:25 pm

cdnchris wrote:I ... hated Die Another Day (took the place of Moonraker as my most despised Bond film) and have to admit I wasn't looking forward to another one.
I'm with you there. I think Halle Berry is beautiful but her entrance reprising Ursula Andress in Dr No was terrible. It looks like someone has been physically holding her under the water and then she bursts to the surface gasping for air. Not really sexy, not matter how much slow motion is applied!

I've heard that Daniel Craig has a similar scene in Casino Royale and according to Mark Kermode on his latest podcast got both the women and the men gasping, so perhaps they've hit it right this time! (although he does also mention a bit of incredibly blatent product placement of the girl complementing Bond on his watch!)

It is a shame the last Brosnan was so poor (though I really liked Rosamund Pike!) - Goldeneye was probably his best film though I have a soft spot for Tomorrow Never Dies since it has both Michelle Yeoh and Jonathan Pryce in it (even if Pryce's death scene is a bit of an anticlimax), and Robert Carlyle in World Is Not Enough joins Sean Bean as a decent Brosnan baddie (however I still can't warm up to Sophie Marceau as a great actress - she is beautiful but her turn in the Bond film felt like a reheat of her Brit-bashing in Braveheart). But Denise Richards as a scientist? I did see World Is Not Enough at the cinema and the audience all groaned at the 'I thought Christmas only came once a year' line.

I still prefer the language teachers' "You're a cunning linguist, James" from the opening of Tomorrow Never Dies as a corny double entendre.

Looking back I think that, despite the fluffy non-Fleming plots and rife product placements, this was where the Brosnan series really went off the rails. The tougher Bond that was touted with Goldeneye was long gone, even before the end of Goldeneye itself, but there was still a lot of fun action fluff, similar to the Roger Moore films at their best.

I'm another person who really liked the Dalton films, though I'd agree that the 'drug baron of the month' plot felt a little underwhelming - but then the baddie taking over the world with a secret island/boat/satellite/blimp/submarine/space station got a bit ridiculous!

I think the major problem with Bond is partly identified by the person talking on the Nightmare Encyclopedia DVD about the Nightmare on Elm Street films (sorry can't remember the name of the person), who says that after three or four films everything ends up falling into parody (just witness a series like 24!).

Another, bigger, problem I think is the push-pull between being closer to the novels and wanting to make big budget family-friendly action films. Plus the films feed on themselves (especially once they departed from the books early on) getting bigger and bigger, and more ridiculous. The need to create new material vs keeping with what worked before, with certain actions and events becoming a Bond 'institution' (and probably getting semiologists very excited about what needs to be there to satisfy audience's expectations of what a Bond film should be), probably created a difficult situation for each film - only getting worse with each new film. Perhaps this is similar to the Godzilla films or superhero comic, which have to wipe their slates clean with new film series (e.g. Godzilla 1984/5) or create alternate universes to keep going with the characters.

It looks like Casino Royale might press the reset button on the series (though there have been comments that it is strange Judi Dench is around for Bond's first assignments!) and get back to basics, but are there any Fleming novels left to plunder for plots?
MichaelB wrote:And there was also the fact that Lazenby's lack of acting experience needed every other aspect of the film to be absolutely top-notch in case there was a problem in that department - for instance, is it a coincidence that this film had one of the strongest female leads in the entire series?
I agree with this too. Lazenby isn't great but it does show that everything is being done in the other areas to compensate (the only film - so far! -where the romantic scenes don't slow the film down too much), and he does a good job in his final scene with Diana Rigg. :cry:

And he wears the clothes very well!
Last edited by colinr0380 on Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:19 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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#53 Post by THX1378 » Sat Nov 18, 2006 3:33 pm

I don't think that Die Another Day is the worst of the Brosnan films. It's not great, but it has it's moments where at it at least trys to be good. I think the worst has to be World is not Enough. I remember seeing it in theaters and just cringing the whole time. It has the worst Bond girl of all time, one of the worst villains *Sophie Marceau is so miscast* and worst line in any Bond film *I thought Christmas only came once a year*. I was glad to see that they gave Eva Green a role that wasn't the dumb Bond girl, or the oversexed Bond girl that so many of the films have had. I was refreshing to see her play someone that is on his level, and infatuated by him. It was nice for once to have her not be the girl that just waned him because he is James Bond.

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cdnchris
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#54 Post by cdnchris » Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:14 pm

colinr0380 wrote:It is a shame the last Brosnan was so poor (though I really liked Rosamund Pike!) - Goldeneye was probably his best film though I have a soft sport for Tomorrow Never Dies since it has both Michelle Yeoh and Jonathan Price in it (even if Price's death scene is a bit of an anticlimax), and Robert Carlyle in World Is Not Enough joins Sean Bean as a decent Brosnan baddie (however I still can't warm up to Sophie Marceau as a great actress - she is beautiful but her turn in the Bond film felt like a reheat of her Brit-bashing in Braveheart). But Denise Richards as a scientist? I did see World Is Not Enough at the cinema and the audience all groaned at the 'I thought Christmas only came once a year' line.
I thought I was the only one that had a soft spot for Tomorrow Never Dies. Nice to know. And I think there was a collective groan across the world at the "Christmas comes once a year" in WINE as the same thing happened in the theater I was in.

I know there's a despise for WINE, I actually didn't mind it. I liked Marceau and Carlyle as the heavies (though that whole "feeling no pain" thing was wasted). I'd take it over most of Moore's films, and especially Die Another Day, at least it felt like a Bond film. I actually came out of DAD mad. It was just a brutal movie and was bewildered by the generally decent reviews it received. It wasn't a Bond movie. It was more like XXX. And it slowly tested me as it progressed. The opening was cool, but then you get that brainwashed thing, the invisible car, the whole DNA changing BS, that brutally dull villain (doing a Guy Pearce impersonation or something), Madonna, stupid sword fight, more brutal than usual double entendres, GOD-AWFUL CGI especially in what may be the dumbest 007 stunt ever (wind surfing), and then the showdown with a villain looking like he came out of Ninja Turtles or something. The only thing it had going for it was the car chase and the fact it tried to return to more political roots (North and South Korea) I actually like Brosnan and thought he was a decent Bond, but... Ugh

But I digress (but then it was inevitable the other Bond films would be discussed).

At any rate I'm hoping to see Casino Royale this weekend. It sounds great and I'm really excited to see what they did with it and to see how Craig does. I have to ask, though, how is La Chiffre as a Bond villain on screen? If only Orson Welles or Peter Lorre could have actually played the character for real.

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#55 Post by colinr0380 » Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:30 pm

cdnchris wrote:I actually came out of DAD mad. It was just a brutal movie and was bewildered by the generally decent reviews it received. It wasn't a Bond movie. It was more like XXX.
Another thing that ruined that film (apart from the invisible car and CG surfing) for me was the 'speed ramping' technique used at some points. Great for a commercial but ruins the flow of an action sequence. I thought XXX did the 'extreme sports spy' stuff better while it seemed the Bond film was just trying to appropriate a latest fad that they didn't know much about.

But whenever I got too mad they put in more scenes with Rosamund Pike and suddenly the pain seemed far away. Perhaps the critics were affected the same way?(!)

Apparently MI6 is using Casino Royale to advertise for new recruits. A big change from when it wasn't certain if the MI6 building could be shown in the opening sequence of World Is Not Enough.

Since I've been looking for a new career being a spy sounds tempting (not the torture part though!). If I lived near London to get to an interview, or had any skills or special talents at all I'd apply! Knowing my luck I'd end up replacing Moneypenny and starting a Brokeback Mountain-style relationship with the elusive, aloof Bond as he wisked through my office! :D

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#56 Post by cdnchris » Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:45 pm

colinr0380 wrote:Another thing that ruined that film (apart from the invisible car and CG surfing) for me was the 'speed ramping' technique used at some points. Great for a commercial but ruins the flow of an action sequence.
Oh yes. Forgot to append that one to my list. I remember it being used in the car chase sequence (and I'm sure it was used elsewhere) and was unbelievably disappointed that that hack (yes, I'm calling Tamahori a hack, if only for this film) reduced to that. And that's also what made me realize that the makers were really aiming more for the XXX crowd.

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Matt
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#57 Post by Matt » Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:00 pm

cdnchris wrote:I have to ask, though, how is La Chiffre as a Bond villain on screen? If only Orson Welles or Peter Lorre could have actually played the character for real.
He's pretty menacing, but never over the top. He, to me at least, came off more as a powerful but desperate man in a desperate situation than as a kind of "mad genius" like you usually get in the Bond films. I guess I mean to say that he's a believable bad guy. I can't see Welles or Lorre quite pulling off the role in this film, though. It's decidedly non-camp (thank Christ).

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#58 Post by cdnchris » Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:54 pm

Ah good. While I'll always love Ernst Stavro Blofeld (specifically Telly Savalas' Blofeld) and his crazy schemes, my favourite Bond villains were actually always the more "grounded" ones. While I guess technically he was a henchman, my favourite villain was always Red Grant, who was very lowkey and menacing. I'm glad to hear La Chiffre falls in the same category.

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#59 Post by obloquy » Sun Nov 19, 2006 1:31 am

This is shockingly good.

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Jem
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#60 Post by Jem » Sun Nov 19, 2006 1:24 pm

Go see it, it's great...no really!

Bloody knuckles.

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zedz
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#61 Post by zedz » Sun Nov 19, 2006 6:26 pm

SncDthMnky wrote:I only have one gripe, and that is that I have to wait another decade to see Clive Owen as Bond.
You don't have to wait at all if you can find a copy of The Hire, and what's more, you can see him directed by Wong Kar-wai (among others).

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#62 Post by Cinesimilitude » Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:50 pm

zedz wrote:
SncDthMnky wrote:I only have one gripe, and that is that I have to wait another decade to see Clive Owen as Bond.
You don't have to wait at all if you can find a copy of The Hire, and what's more, you can see him directed by Wong Kar-wai (among others).
Yeah, I've seen all the Hire shorts, and I loved them. but It's all about the "Bond, James Bond." I think Clive Owen would easily be the best bond ever. better than dalton, connery, craig and brosnan combined.

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Len
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#63 Post by Len » Sun Nov 19, 2006 8:16 pm

I'm really excited about this now. After Die Another Day, I had no hope whatsoever for the Bond series, but now it seems they were just taking a Fight Club-ish approach to the future of the series; "Its not until you lose everything that you are free to do anything". So with that in mind, I guess the CGI-surfing, Madonna, the transformers costume worn by the bad guy and The Car all make perfect sense now.

Seeing Casino Royale this friday and I honestly can't wait.

(and yeah, Clive Owen would've made a great Bond)

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John Cope
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#64 Post by John Cope » Sun Nov 19, 2006 10:49 pm

Saw it this afternoon and was very impressed. Absolutely superb and first rate from top to bottom. Some have said that the film is too long but I was sorry when it ended and look forward to seeing it again. I thought it was paced out very well and Craig owned it as Bond. He also brought back a welcome authentic masculinity. At this point my only concern is that they maintain the integrity and momentum of this picture. I am optimistic that they will.

FWIW, I hated Tomorrow Never Dies and consider it the worst Bond movie save for Moore's execrable Man With the Golden Gun. That movie was just excruciating but the Brosnan picture was almost as bad in the sense that it felt like the ultimate catalogue of cliches. Far more than Die Another Day, this was the film it felt like the Bond series had been working toward for years--an absolutely hollow exercise in stylish posturing and ticking off the boxes on a "requirements for a Bond movie" list. Boring as hell. I actually enjoyed Die Another Day, though I will gladly admit that it is garbage. What I liked about it was that it was unapologetic garbage. Casino Royale is in a different league entirely. It satisfied my very simple litmus test: do I give a damn about what is happening on screen? It satisfied it and then some. There's only a handful of Bond movies that do likewise.

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Lino
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#65 Post by Lino » Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:03 pm

Always my favorite part in any Bond movie. That and those silly Bond girl names. Oh, and those Q gadgets too. And does he still use a Walter PPK?

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Len
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#66 Post by Len » Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:11 pm

Nah, he uses a newer Walther pistol, the P99 (a rather odd choice for a Bond-type character, due to the considerable size of said pistol).

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Matt
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#67 Post by Matt » Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:23 pm

The opening credits was the one thing I was disappointed in in this new movie. Not only is the song the worst Bond theme ever (or at least since "License to Kill"), there are no silhouettes of naked ladies. Not a one!
Last edited by Matt on Thu Nov 23, 2006 12:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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#68 Post by Cinesimilitude » Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:48 pm

Matt wrote:
The opening credits was the one thing I was disappointed in in this new movie. Not only is the song the worst Bond theme ever (or at least since "License to Kill"), there are no silhouettes of naked ladies. Not a one!
Ditto. That was the worst part of the whole thing for me. the cards were cool, but it needed ladies.

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#69 Post by cdnchris » Tue Nov 21, 2006 1:30 am

matt wrote: The opening credits was the one thing I was disappointed in in this new movie. Not only is the song the worst Bond theme ever (or at least since "License to Kill"), there are no silhouettes of naked ladies. Not a one!
I know they're trying to change Bond and everything, ground him more, and I'm all for that and was really hoping for it, but seriously, losing the naked silhouettes is just too much. That's just madness!

I've heard a bit of the song (not the whole thing mind you). In all honesty they were probably better off using the song in the original Casino Royale film. It was catchy. In fact, I'm humming it right now.

Wasn't able to make it to the film over the weekend. Definitely going tomorrow night, though, right after work. Still pumped!

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HerrSchreck
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#70 Post by HerrSchreck » Tue Nov 21, 2006 1:47 am

Saw Chris Cornell do the theme on Leno. Now I fucking LOVED SOundgarden-- don't get me wrong-- but when did Chris Cornell turn into Doug Fairbanks from THIEF OF BAGDHAD?

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Jem
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#71 Post by Jem » Tue Nov 21, 2006 1:56 am

cdnchris wrote:Still pumped!
You'll pull a muscle if your not careful.

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Len
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#72 Post by Len » Tue Nov 21, 2006 7:23 am

Strange, I find myself liking the Cornell song quite a bit. It's not Soundgarden (maybe not even Audioslave), but it's not a bad song. Then again, haven't seen the film yet (and the credit sequence), so cannot comment on how well it might fit there. Maybe not a classic Bond theme by any means, but one of the better efforts in recent years.

Ofcourse, the best Bond song by far in ages is the one Scott Walker did for Tomorrow Never Dies. Shame it wasn't used in the credit sequence (I think it might've played during the end credits), it was truly a wonderful piece.

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Matt
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#73 Post by Matt » Tue Nov 21, 2006 11:42 am

Len wrote:Strange, I find myself liking the Cornell song quite a bit.
Bah! You're in Finland. You probably like Beherit, too.

Tomorrow Never Dies actually had songs from several artists submitted to be the theme: Space, The Cardigans (which was eventually sung by Scott Walker, but not used in the film), Pulp, Saint Etienne. And they went with... Sheryl Crow.

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#74 Post by dadaistnun » Tue Nov 21, 2006 11:50 am

Matt wrote:
Len wrote:Strange, I find myself liking the Cornell song quite a bit.

Bah! You're in Finland. You probably like Beherit, too.

Tomorrow Never Dies actually had songs from several artists submitted to be the theme: Space, The Cardigans (which was eventually sung by Scott Walker, but not used in the film), Pulp, Saint Etienne. And they went with... Sheryl Crow.

The Pulp song popped up as a b-side on one of their singles and is also on the second disc of the recent This Is Hardcore reissue.

Not to take this too far OT, but those Chris Cornell songs are my biggest problem with Miami Vice. I really don't get the appeal and wish someone would steal those cds from Michael Mann before he makes his next movie.

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#75 Post by Antoine Doinel » Tue Nov 21, 2006 12:03 pm

I would also say the Audioslave song in Collateral is not only terrible but distracting. Not to mention the Jay-Z/Linkin Park crap in Miami Vice. Mann would be well advised to hire a music supervisor as his taste is not very good.

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