Michael Mann

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flyonthewall2983
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Re: Michael Mann

#176 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:46 am

Ebiri said on Twitter that work is still being done on Hue, and that Mann was in Vietnam recently.

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Re: Michael Mann

#177 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:07 pm

He spoke recently about projects he has in the pipeline, including a potential follow-up to Heat, the Hue mini-series, a project on the Golden Triangle, and a historical Western he is developing with Eric Roth.

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Re: Michael Mann

#178 Post by HJackson » Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:58 pm

There was so much depth there -- it was always a question of 'How do you do a sequel?'
Bit of a weird question given LA Takedown was meant to be an ongoing series ala Crime Story. You’d think he’d have plenty to work with from the off.

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Re: Michael Mann

#179 Post by Brian C » Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:48 pm

Unless all of the key elements of the series were compressed into one long movie.

I love HEAT, but I have to confess that Mann’s description of the potential sequel doesn’t sound so interesting. By far the most interesting of the three projects discussed is the Comanche one. But it sounds like none of these projects are likely to be made so I suppose it’s all moot.

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Re: Michael Mann

#180 Post by HJackson » Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:59 pm

IIRC LA Takedown, completed from the failed pilot, is pretty much Heat on a lower budget and without some of the peripheral subplots. But additional work was seemingly done on it between pilot and standalone movie, similar to the development of Mulholland Drive as I understand it, so the narrative conclusion probably terminated many of the threads that would’ve been left open for development - and I’m probably overestimating how much long-term story thought is necessarily put into a series at the point a pilot is made in any case.

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Re: Michael Mann

#181 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:55 pm

Brian C wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:48 pm
But it sounds like none of these projects are likely to be made so I suppose it’s all moot.
I really hope we get the Hue mini-series. Assuming FX and Michael de Luca are still behind this 100% I think we'll get it.

I am less than enthused about a Heat follow-up of any kind. The movie is just so perfect and complete a story that any attempt at continuing the narrative would be pulling at threads.

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Re: Michael Mann

#182 Post by The Elegant Dandy Fop » Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:00 am

Sadly, I was told by people who have worked adjacent to Mann that a lot of it is just talk. Now that boomers are dying off, no one wants to see anything Vietnam related and that Hollywood has responded very negatively to that project. Following the failure of Blackhat, he hasn't been able to get projects off the ground due. He keeps getting close, but money falls through and the projects are quietly cancelled.

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Brian C
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Michael Mann

#183 Post by Brian C » Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:23 pm

The Elegant Dandy Fop wrote:Sadly, I was told by people who have worked adjacent to Mann that a lot of it is just talk. Now that boomers are dying off, no one wants to see anything Vietnam related and that Hollywood has responded very negatively to that project. Following the failure of Blackhat, he hasn't been able to get projects off the ground due. He keeps getting close, but money falls through and the projects are quietly cancelled.
This makes a lot of sense to me on all counts and more or less is why I said earlier that none of these projects seemed likely to happen.

The thing is ... Mann is 76 years old, was never terribly prolific, has a spotty box office record, and now has made one film in the last decade. BLACKHAT was a career-threatening bomb even before taking all those other factors into account.

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Re: Michael Mann

#184 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:51 pm

The Elegant Dandy Fop wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:00 am
Sadly, I was told by people who have worked adjacent to Mann that a lot of it is just talk. Now that boomers are dying off, no one wants to see anything Vietnam related and that Hollywood has responded very negatively to that project. Following the failure of Blackhat, he hasn't been able to get projects off the ground due. He keeps getting close, but money falls through and the projects are quietly cancelled.
Fuck

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Michael Mann

#185 Post by FrauBlucher » Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:42 pm

He has enough cred to get foreign investors

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Re: Michael Mann

#186 Post by mfunk9786 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:47 pm

FrauBlucher wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:42 pm
He has enough cred to get foreign investors
If TEDF is saying he's heard this from people around Mann, I would have very little reason to doubt him, unfortunately.

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Michael Mann

#187 Post by FrauBlucher » Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:54 pm

He mentioned Hollywood. Didn’t say anything in regards to foreign markets. Perhaps Mann hasn’t gone that route.

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Re: Michael Mann

#188 Post by mfunk9786 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:55 pm

I suppose my question would then be: If the money is out there to make the movie, why isn't the movie being made?

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Re: Michael Mann

#189 Post by FrauBlucher » Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:00 pm

I guess I would say how much money? Is he looking for a ridiculous amount? That could scare off investors.

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Re: Michael Mann

#190 Post by domino harvey » Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:01 pm

They may be making demands as far as casting or filming locations as well

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Re: Michael Mann

#191 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:21 pm

mfunk9786 wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:55 pm
I suppose my question would then be: If the money is out there to make the movie, why isn't the movie being made?
Not a movie, a mini-series.

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Re: Michael Mann

#192 Post by mfunk9786 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:28 pm

Tomato, tomato

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Re: Michael Mann

#193 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:37 pm

I will admit ignorance but I've never heard of foreign investors having the same kind of sway over an American television product the way it would a movie out of Hollywood.

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Re: Michael Mann

#194 Post by Brian C » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:45 pm

It seems extremely easy to believe that no one would want to give Michael Mann a bunch of money - or any money, frankly - to make a series about Vietnam. I love the guy but even I wouldn’t give him more than maybe fifty bucks to get that made.

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Re: Michael Mann

#195 Post by mfunk9786 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:58 pm

Brian C wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:45 pm
It seems extremely easy to believe that no one would want to give Michael Mann a bunch of money - or any money, frankly - to make a series about Vietnam. I love the guy but even I wouldn’t give him more than maybe fifty bucks to get that made.
Brian is right on.

It's a common misconception about the film business that somehow foreign investors are who you go to when Hollywood closes their wallets because they'll pay for anything, and if it worked that way, every independent filmmaker would be able to make anything they wanted. Just because someone doesn't work for a studio doesn't mean they like to lose money on something. It's very difficult to get films financed - look at First Reformed for example, and how many financiers have their names and logos appear before the opening titles. It's almost literally a rodeo of going around trying to gather up checks and add them all up to something resembling a budget for some people - and if you're Michael Mann with an ambitious idea that'll cost a good chunk of change, that's going to have to be a lot of checks.


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Re: Michael Mann

#197 Post by HJackson » Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:05 am

What’s the deal with the season three Miami Vice episode “Shadow in the Dark”? Crockett and Tubbs are randomly working on a burglary case (with IIRC no explanation given, unlike other episodes where they venture outside of the regular vice beat) and Crockett goes insane trying to profile a pervert prowler who likes stealing men’s trousers and who might be moving towards rape and murder. It was broadcast two months after Manhunter came out and is so obviously modelled on that film that it really feels like you’re watching Manhunter rather than an episode of Miami Vice, with Don Johnson doing William Petersen doing Will Graham rather than playing Sonny Crockett.

What was Mann’s involvement with the show at this point? He’s still listed as an executive producer but the influence of Dick Wolf is already being strongly felt with topical episodes about the IRA and Nicaragua starting off the season. But this episode (which I quite liked) sticks out like a sore thumb and I’m wondering if this has ever been spoken about by people involved with the show? I also wonder about the legal and ethical questions that arise from ripping off your own movie, which was adapted from a popular novel, in such a way that you somehow evade crediting and paying the author of the ultimate source.

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Re: Michael Mann

#198 Post by colinr0380 » Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:03 am

I revisited Manhunter again last night and still enjoy it a lot. This time around I was really struck by the climactic irony of the way that the duality between the serial killer and the cop putting himself into their mindset in order to track them down turns into the cops themselves stealthily skulking (almost blundering) through the woods behind the killer's house before Will does his own version of a home invasion by leaping and smashing through the glass window! I kind of love that despite having that affinity with his prey that our cop hero just smashes his way in regardless of safety or alerting the killer, compared to the meticulous way that the Tooth Fairy used glass cutting equipment to gain entry into the homes of the families that he killed. I suppose it is the element of time being on one's side, or not, that decides the angle of attack in the respective situations!

That kind of reveals Will Graham's essential difference in humanity, and difference from the monsters he is sharing mindspace with, though. I think one of the things that I most appreciate about Manhunter is its 'discretion', in not revelling in showing us the murderous actions of the killer visually whilst still trying to understand their actions mentally in some depth. We get a lot of aftermath details but really the film is discreet about actually showing the murders being committed directly. There are moments of horrible imagery - I'm thinking about the crime scene photographs on the airplane, shown in flashes - but even there it is to show Will being forced back into such soul destroying work by the effect that such images have on a child sitting next to him and accidentally seeing the photographs as the folder opens whilst Will is napping, his mind briefly elsewhere.

I particularly love the 'journey' of the Leeds house throughout the film, with the film beginning with the pre-credits scene of the nocturnal entry of the killer until the woman wakes up as the torch is levelled on her (which later on gets replayed as the first of the killer's two 'ecstatic fantasy' mirroring moments). Then we get Will Graham visiting the still fresh crime scene, bodies removed but the walls still sprayed with arterial gouts of blood and stains from where bodies were propped up. And then near to the end to really get into the mind of the killer, Graham returns once more to re-trace the killer's steps, only now through the fully cleaned up and wiped down, ready for the estate agents to market with no trace of its previous human occupants remaining except in memory, house. Which is perhaps more upsetting than the bloody crime scene in some ways. This also all contrasts against continually returning to pore through the VHS tapes of the family home movies for clues, of the time when the house actually was a functioning home. Tapes which end up becoming clues in themselves after the investigator pulls back far enough to see the woods rather than the individual trees. I guess if being uncharitable someone could say that Michael Mann has always been a director focused on style and surface images than exploring characters, but I really think this illustrates the way that the style and locations often are the characterisation in his films, often for characters unable to articulate themselves verbally. In this case because they're dead.

And there is a lot of sympathy there for the killer, whilst not absolving him for his crimes (as well put in the comment that Graham makes about him), which perhaps also brings us to the use of the Hannibal "Lecktor" character in Manhunter. I particularly like that Lecktor is truly used as a supporting character here, who takes the opportunity to attack Will Graham and his family again even from behind maximum security bars, but who in talking to Will again almost accidentally provides the clue to him about how to track down the Tooth Fairy. I love that final telephone call as Will has the revelation about halfway through Lecktor's speech teasing him, which suddenly turns the tables. Lecktor has no more information to give, or role to play, at this point even whilst he is still talking away, and indeed he disappears from the film, his role finished. That is perhaps the major contrast against the Brett Ratner Red Dragon remake from 2002, which despite being a prequel has to flesh out the Hannibal Lector character more (by explicitly showing the violent attack on Will Graham in its prologue, again contrasting against Manhunter's discretion in just a verbal description of it, to a child no less (another example of innocence being in close proximity to the darkest parts of human nature, and needing protection for everyone's sake to match the child on the plane), being enough to chill the bones) and really turn all of the material into a showcase for Anthony Hopkins in his final portrayal of the character. Despite being chronologically the first in the series, Red Dragon only filmically makes sense coming after The Silence of the Lambs and Hannibal made Lector into the world's favourite serial killer. Manhunter, coming years before that iconic status, treats "Lecktor" as the manipulative monster that the police investigator only uses for as long as he has to, and even then it is incredibly dangerous to be in close proximity to for even that limited amount of time.

I love the tragic romance between the Dolarhyde and Reba too. It is so heartbreaking to think that this relationship with a superficially 'damaged' (by being blind) colleague could have been what could have saved the more deeply damaged Francis from committing his crimes. His focus on the visual as the ultimate sensory experience could have complimented Reba's blindness, but it all came far too late for him, and of course he horribly misinterprets the moment of a colleague brushing a bit of pollen from Reba's hair as a lover's betrayal (the second 'ecstatic fantasy' moment), which even though he is already a monstrous serial killer and the police are on their way to him already at this point, sort of shows that Dolarhyde himself if left to his own devices was going to have destroyed his one possibility of redemption anyway. That's sort of the Michael Mann theme running through all of his films (I think I mentioned it back on the Blackhat thread a few years ago), that the female characters are often in supporting roles and marginalised for the foregrounded stuff of men clashing together and often having punch ups or shoot outs, but they are often always portrayed as characters in their own right, often tormented by the way that they just cannot get through to the men in their lives and stop them from wrecking everything by following their prescribed moral codes, or going on that bank heist. Or from the demons in their own heads.

That's really why the domestic relationship between Will and Molly plays out the way it does. She cannot stop him from carrying out this investigation through to the bitter end even if it puts her and their son in danger too, and she can see the consequences that going down this path has on Will himself. Similarly Reba is the figure used as the possible saviour for Francis, even if she is rather unaware of her redemptive role in his life until he has fully turned away from her and become the Red Dragon, the murderous side that needs her to die to continue to exist within Francis. That's the tragedy of the film, even if it is happening to a man who is already pretty much irredeemable because he has butchered two entire families by that point. Perhaps the third family he was going to have murdered on that full moon cycle was going to have been the one he potentially could have had with Reba. In the end Francis gets remained as a single, incel-avant-la-lettre, 'worryingly single, possibly gay and wanting to be a woman himself' (not particularly endorsed by the film, particularly because it heartbreakingly focuses on the consumated love scene between Francis and Reba, but which does get used by the police colleagues calling the killer by the effeminate name of "Tooth Fairy" over the killer's preferred "Red Dragon" and even by Will in that tabloid magazine interview to infuriate the killer into revealing himself. Which also rather interestingly/worryingly contrasts against Buffalo Bill being exactly that kind of figure 'played straight' in Silence of the Lambs) figure who is wanting to be wanted by women already in happy family relationships because he is jealous of the life they have and love that they are providing. Francis for all of the Red Dragon ideas of being able to become something more ironically gets reduced into a petty nothing, which might be the appropriate fate for a villain wanting more power than they can handle (which is probably where the fate of the Nazi officers in Michael Mann's previous film The Keep could also come in as a carried over theme into this film).
Last edited by colinr0380 on Sun May 03, 2020 5:47 am, edited 7 times in total.

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Re: Michael Mann

#199 Post by therewillbeblus » Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:33 am

colinr0380 wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:03 am
And there is a lot of sympathy there for the killer, whilst not absolving him for his crimes (as well put in the comment that Graham makes about him)
Great thoughts, Colin! Will's line of "I feel sorry for the little boy, not the man" (or something of that nature) is one of my favorites because it allows him to simultaneously feel sympathy for Francis' trauma and move forward to hold him accountable, absolving him of past responsibility while holding him to it in the present, a separation that few people can and do afford another when weighing a person's worth. It's a very humanist approach and his line is one I think about often in both my professional and personal life.

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Re: Michael Mann

#200 Post by colinr0380 » Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:33 am

Thanks! I did like that the Shout! Factory disc's menus continue that duality, with the menus of the Theatrical cut disc focusing entirely on Will Graham and those of the Director's Cut disc on Francis Dolarhyde. Also, I have always loved the way that the musical score is fully tied into the themes of the film, but especially so when it does the same contrasting thing, with Seiun underscoring not just the early scene of Will and Molly in bed before he goes off on his assignment, but the preceding scene in their beach house too, whilst This Big Hush does the same thing at the opposite end of the film for Francis and Reba, covering the love scene and the morning after scene following it.

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