The Alternative American Film List

Message

jonp72 · #1 Post by **jonp72** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 10:30 am

This year, the American Film Institute issued a list that claims to include "the 100 best American movies of all time," which was a reprise of a similar list compiled by the AFI in 1998. What I propose is a "list project" that celebrates the best in American film, but done in opposition to the AFI list. In this respect, I want to help collaborate on a "counter-canon" of great American films that serves as an implicit rebuke to the AFI's Hollywood canon of Forrest Gump and The Shawshank Redemption. To give credit where credit is due, I was inspired in this effort by Jonathan Rosenbaum's column, List-o-Mania or How I Stopped Worrying and Learned to Love American Movies, in which Rosenbaum compiled his own list in opposition to the 1998 poll.

The Rules

1. 50 films, ranked from 1 to 50, no ties. The list must go to 50. The film ranked #1 will get 50 points, #2 will get 49, down to #50 which get 1 point.

2. To make the final list, a film must be mentioned on two different lists.

3. To give people adequate time to make a list, lists may be submitted until December 31, 2007. All lists can be submitted via personal message to my account.

4. To make the our list comparable to the AFI's list, all nominated films must be feature-length. In this context, I will define "feature-length" as any film of 40 minutes or more, which was the standard used by AFI in compiling its list in 1998. IMDB will be the final arbiter of any disputes over the length of a film. I apologize that this excludes a lot of great American short filmmakers, ranging from Tex Avery to Bruce Conner to Stan Brakhage, but we can always do a one-off list of the best shorts.

5. To state the obvious, all films listed must be American. For the purposes of this list-making enterprise, if the film's IMDB entry lists "US" as the "Country" of the film, then film qualifies as American. If it's not, then it's not eligible. For example, this would make A Clockwork Orange and The Third Man ineligible (despite their inclusion on the AFI lists), because they were British films (listed as Country:UK in IMDB), not American films.

6. Although the AFI largely limits themselves to narrative films, non-narrative or experimental films may be included on the list, as long as they are American and of feature length.

7. Serials will be counted as one film. Trilogies will be counted as three different films, and must be separated as such.

8. Because this is an "alternative" list, any feature-length American film is eligible for the list, except for films that have already appeared on the 1998 or the 2007 version of AFI's lists of the best 100 films. Except for films on the list given below, any feature-length American film may be nominated:

12 Angry Men (1957)
2001: A Space Odyssey (1968)
All About Eve (1950)
All Quiet on the Western Front (1930)
All The President's Men (1976)
Amadeus (1984)
American Graffiti (1973)
An American in Paris (1951)
Annie Hall (1977)
Apartment, The (1960)
Apocalypse Now (1979)
Ben-Hur (1959)
The Best Years of Our Lives (1946)
Birth of a Nation, The (1915)
Blade Runner (1982)
Bonnie and Clyde (1967)
Bringing Up Baby (1938)
Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid (1969)
Cabaret (1972)
Casablanca (1942)
Chinatown (1974)
Citizen Kane (1941)
City Lights (1931)
Clockwork Orange, A (1971)
Close Encounters of the Third Kind (1977)
Dances with Wolves (1990)
The Deer Hunter (1978)
Do The Right Thing (1989)
Doctor Zhivago (1965)
Double Indemnity (1944)
Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb (1964)
Duck Soup (1933)
E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial (1982)
Easy Rider (1969)
Fantasia (1940)
Fargo (1996)
Forrest Gump (1994)
Frankenstein (1931)
The French Connection (1971)
From Here to Eternity (1953)
The General (1927)
Giant (1956)
The Godfather (1972)
The Godfather Part II (1974)
The Gold Rush (1925)
Gone with the Wind (1939)
Goodfellas (1990)
The Graduate (1967)
The Grapes of Wrath (1940)
Guess Who's Coming to Dinner (1967)
High Noon (1952)
In The Heat Of The Night (1967)
Intolerance (1916)
It Happened One Night (1934)
It's a Wonderful Life (1946)
Jaws (1975)
Jazz Singer, The (1927)
King Kong (1933)
The Last Picture Show (1971)
Lawrence of Arabia (1962)
Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring (2001)
M*A*S*H (1970)
The Maltese Falcon (1941)
The Manchurian Candidate (1962)
Midnight Cowboy (1969)
Modern Times (1936)
Mr. Smith Goes to Washington (1939)
Mutiny on the Bounty (1935)
My Fair Lady (1964)
Nashville (1975)
Network (1976)
A Night At The Opera (1935)
North by Northwest (1959)
On the Waterfront (1954)
One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest (1975)
Patton (1970)
Philadelphia Story, The (1940)
A Place in the Sun (1951)
Platoon (1986)
Psycho (1960)
Pulp Fiction (1994)
Raging Bull (1980)
Raiders of the Lost Ark (1981)
Rear Window (1954)
Rebel Without a Cause (1955)
Rocky (1976)
Saving Private Ryan (1998)
Schindler's List (1993)
The Searchers (1956)
Shane (1953)
The Shawshank Redemption (1994)
The Silence of the Lambs (1991)
Singin' in the Rain (1952)
Sixth Sense, The (1999)
Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs (1937)
Some Like It Hot (1959)
Sophie's Choice (1982)
The Sound of Music (1965)
Spartacus (1960)
Stagecoach (1939)
Star Wars (1977)
A Streetcar Named Desire (1951)
Sullivan's Travels (1941)
Sunrise (1927)
Sunset Boulevard (1950)
Swing Time (1936)
Taxi Driver (1976)
The African Queen (1951)
The Bridge on the River Kwai (1957)
The Godfather (1972)
The Third Man (1949)
Titanic (1997)
To Kill a Mockingbird (1962)
Tootsie (1982)
Toy Story (1995)
The Treasure of the Sierra Madre (1948)
Unforgiven (1992)
Vertigo (1958)
West Side Story (1961)
Who's Afraid Of Virginia Woolf? (1966)
The Wild Bunch (1969)
Wizard of Oz, The (1939)
Wuthering Heights (1939)
Yankee Doodle Dandy (1942)

Michael · #2 Post by **Michael** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:08 am

8. Because this is an "alternative" list, any feature-length American film is eligible for the list, except for films that have already appeared on the 1998 or the 2007 version of AFI's lists of the best 100 films. Except for films on the list given below, any feature-length American film may be nominated:

I don't understand this logic. Why the need to "except" the films listed here? Not every one of those films will make the final list, I can guarantee you that.

#3 Post by **Matt** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:12 am

I was going to move this to "Other Lists," but I think the restrictions you've placed on selection are very interesting and would provide a nice challenge. I think it would also provide a good opportunity to indulge in some serious list-making for those who have not been a part of the most recent round of the Lists Project (e.g. me).

Believe me, I won't find it hard to leave Guess Who's Coming to Dinner or E.T. off my own top 50. In fact, I think I already know what's going to be my #1.

#4 Post by **Matt** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:13 am

Michael wrote:I don't understand this logic. Why the need to "except" the films listed here? Not every one of those films will make the final list, I can guarantee you that.

Well, otherwise it's just another boring "greatest films of all time" list. This is much more interesting.

Michael · #5 Post by **Michael** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:19 am

In fact, I think I already know what's going to be my #1.

Do tell what #1 is.

Well, otherwise it's just another boring "greatest films of all time" list. This is much more interesting.

True but how can I participate without voting for Bringing Up Baby?!

#6 Post by **Matt** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:32 am

Michael wrote:True but how can I participate without voting for Bringing Up Baby?!

I know, it's painful, but think of the stuff you can put on the list, like My Darling Clementine! And Bad Day at Black Rock! And Rebecca! And Top Hat! And All That Jazz! And Notorious! And Only Angels Have Wings! And The Awful Truth! And His Girl Friday! And Young Frankenstein! And All That Heaven Allows.

Michael · #7 Post by **Michael** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:45 am

And All That Heaven Allows.

That's my #1. Not feeling so bad anymore now thinking I can throw in The Birds, Now Voyager, Meet Me in St. Louis, Gun Crazy, Holiday...

So jonp72, what's the deadline date?

#8 Post by **Matt** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:03 pm

jonp72 wrote:3. To give people adequate time to make a list, lists may be submitted until December 31, 2007. All lists can be submitted via personal message to my account.

Michael · #9 Post by **Michael** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:22 pm

And lets not forget The Roaring Twenties which I saw a couple of weeks ago and I can't get this astounding film out of my system. Everything about it is utterly magnificent. Maybe the best gangster film ever made.

#10 Post by **Jeff** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:36 pm

I like it. Fuller and Cassavetes shall finally have their revenge over the AFI.

Oh, and Night of the Hunter and Sweet Smell of Success for fuck's sake!

Nadsat · #11 Post by **Nadsat** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:00 pm

jonp72 wrote:5. To state the obvious, all films listed must be American. For the purposes of this list-making enterprise, if the film's IMDB entry lists "US" as the "Country" of the film, then film qualifies as American. If it's not, then it's not eligible. For example, this would make A Clockwork Orange and The Third Man ineligible (despite their inclusion on the AFI lists), because they were British films (listed as Country:UK in IMDB), not American films.

Sorry for this stupid question, but what if IMDB list two countries, for example UK/USA or USA/UK (or another combination)?

foggy eyes · #12 Post by **foggy eyes** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:34 pm

A fine idea. There is huge potential for a shake-up (Christmas in July, House of Bamboo, Funny Face, Stranger on the Third Floor, Twentieth Century, Night Moves, Man of the West, Criss Cross, The Fountainhead, Love Me Tonight, Heaven's Gate, and so on and so on).

Highway 61 · #13 Post by **Highway 61** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 5:25 pm

I'm game, but why not go for a full 100?

Awesome Welles · #14 Post by **Awesome Welles** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 5:30 pm

jonp72 wrote:5. To state the obvious, all films listed must be American. For the purposes of this list-making enterprise, if the film's IMDB entry lists "US" as the "Country" of the film, then film qualifies as American. If it's not, then it's not eligible. For example, this would make A Clockwork Orange and The Third Man ineligible (despite their inclusion on the AFI lists), because they were British films (listed as Country:UK in IMDB), not American films.

Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb (1964)

A great idea. But how can I participate without voting for Barry Lyndon? If the AFI get Dr. Strangelove I want Redmond Barry dammit! I'll just have to cry my eyes out I suppose.

Michael Kerpan · #15 Post by **Michael Kerpan** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 5:33 pm

Let me put in a word for some early Lubitsch, such as "Marriage Circle" and "So This Is Paris". And Sternberg's extraordinary "Docks of New York". And Vidor's unassuming but delightful "Show People". And some W.C. Fields -- especially "It's a Gift" and "Man on theFlying Trapeze"

And seconding the exceptional "Roaring Twenties"

and did anyone mention "The Set Up"?

#16 Post by **zedz** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 5:52 pm

Matt wrote:
Michael wrote:I don't understand this logic. Why the need to "except" the films listed here? Not every one of those films will make the final list, I can guarantee you that.
Well, otherwise it's just another boring "greatest films of all time" list. This is much more interesting.

Anything that clears the way for less celebrated films is fine by me. I have no doubt that our final list will be a more worthwhile celebration of American cinema that the AFI's even without a handful of obvious classics.

And don't forget that there are a number of experimental films (e.g. Dog Star Man, Wavelength, Sink or Swim) that qualify for inclusion. And vast numbers of great documentaries.

I've put no real thought into this yet, but The Roaring Twenties is a frontrunner for my top spot, Michael.

vivahawks · #17 Post by **vivahawks** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 10:35 pm

This should be interesting. Hopefully I'll be able to put more thought into it than the 50s list. Seconded on "So This is Paris", and chalk up a fourth very high vote for "The Roaring Twenties".

#18 Post by **zedz** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:23 am

Well, that was quick! I've come up with a draft list by 'processing' my existing 'Lists Project' lists (reducing them to just the US features, removing the 3 or 4 double-ups on the AFI list, then shuffling the decades in rough order of preference).

By this method, The Roaring Twenties does end up at the top (go Raoul!), which makes sense, since it was the only US film apart from the ineligible The General and Motion Painting No. 1 to top an individual decade for me. (Though in half an hour it could well be Night of the Hunter.)

An interesting thing I noticed is that the number of US films on my lists fell drastically with the 1960s and never really recovered. I love a lot of 70s films, but they're not really reflected on my list apart from a token Altman, a token Peckinpah, Cockfighter and Killer of Sheep. So the draft list only has 15 post 1960 films on it, and more than half of those are experimental films or documentaries.

And there's one film which I don't know if it even qualifies, since neither it nor its director appear on imdb: Obsessive Becoming by Daniel Reeves. He's American, but he was at some point based in Europe. Does anybody have any idea if this is even an American film?

Narshty · #19 Post by **Narshty** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 5:26 am

jonp72 wrote:3. To give people adequate time to make a list, lists may be submitted until December 31, 2007. All lists can be submitted via personal message to my account.

Six months seems a little extreme. The end of August perhaps? No-one here is going to have trouble putting together a list of 50 movies.

Oh, and The Magnificent Ambersons is my number one by a mile.

Awesome Welles · #20 Post by **Awesome Welles** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 5:40 am

I was actually thinking the end of September plenty of time for the Fuller set to come in for those of us with less experience of the master!

Narshty · #21 Post by **Narshty** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:52 am

FSimeoni wrote:I was actually thinking the end of September plenty of time for the Fuller set to come in for those of us with less experience of the master!

Meh - we might as well not vote until everyone's seen the entirety of America's back catalogue in that case.

Awesome Welles · #22 Post by **Awesome Welles** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 7:12 am

I think it's a major release and also the fact that many people are likely to be on holiday between now and the end of August, the end of September will give a lot of extra people time to see the list.

Narshty · #23 Post by **Narshty** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 8:01 am

I just think it's a bit churlish. The Eclipse Fuller set is a boxset I'd love to see, but I've not got the money to get it, nor multi-region capability at the moment, so should we hold off until I'm a position to see them? Everyone's going to have "essential" gaps in their viewing, but so what? It'll be a nice, vibrant list full of great alternative classics, just as it should be.

Holiday concerns are fairly legitimate, but surely no-one's going to slave more than an hour or two over their list (I'd hope)? It's only 50 movies. Everyone'll inevitably be posting their full lists anyway (I know I will).

I hope there won't be too much tactical voting going on. I'd far prefer people's honest, instinctive tastes rather than hedging their bets in the hope that certain directors will get a look in.

Michael · #24 Post by **Michael** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 10:22 am

Everyone's going to have "essential" gaps in their viewing, but so what? It'll be a nice, vibrant list full of great alternative classics, just as it should be.

Holiday concerns are fairly legitimate, but surely no-one's going to slave more than an hour or two over their list (I'd hope)? It's only 50 movies. Everyone'll inevitably be posting their full lists anyway (I know I will).

I hope there won't be too much tactical voting going on. I'd far prefer people's honest, instinctive tastes rather than hedging their bets in the hope that certain directors will get a look in.

I totally agree. I can compose my top 50 American favorites in a few minutes. An easy task unlike putting together the list for each decade for the Lists Project which can take me weeks.

Awesome Welles · #25 Post by **Awesome Welles** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:02 am

Narshty wrote:I just think it's a bit churlish. The Eclipse Fuller set is a boxset I'd love to see, but I've not got the money to get it, nor multi-region capability at the moment, so should we hold off until I'm a position to see them? Everyone's going to have "essential" gaps in their viewing, but so what? It'll be a nice, vibrant list full of great alternative classics, just as it should be.

Holiday concerns are fairly legitimate, but surely no-one's going to slave more than an hour or two over their list (I'd hope)? It's only 50 movies. Everyone'll inevitably be posting their full lists anyway (I know I will).

I hope there won't be too much tactical voting going on. I'd far prefer people's honest, instinctive tastes rather than hedging their bets in the hope that certain directors will get a look in.

I suppose you're right but does jonp72 want to officially amend the hand in date. I have pretty much already finished my list (it did take about five minutes) but I was really looking forward to seeing that Fuller set and wanted Fuller the chance to get recognition in my list. But then again I always vote for other stuff.