The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Project)

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Yojimbo
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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#76 Post by Yojimbo » Tue Dec 28, 2010 6:22 pm

zedz wrote:Well obviously half of those will be on my list (though not Red River - can't get past the silly ending - or the vastly overrated Dead Man, and I tried to watch Monte Walsh last week with a friend but neither of us could stand its lame humour and visual ugliness - are there any comic westerns that actually work?) but I do sometimes wonder if The Wild Bunch or For a Few Dollars More or Rancho Notorious really is a better film than Fort Apache, or The Far Country, or Comanche Station, or Colorado Territory, or some other film by the aforementioned masters that I'm not going to be able to accommodate.
For me The Far Country is the weakest of the Mann-Stewarts and it may not make my list; Red River's ending denies it the accolade of 'Unquestioned Masterpiece', but there's more than enough in what preceded it to easily make my Top 50; I love the look of Monte Walsh more than anything, and Lee Marvin, of course; its perhaps too precious in its visuals, at times, but there's enough there to see it over the line.
I think For a Few Dollars More is Leone's most perfectly-realised Western, although I prefer The Good, ....yadda, yadda, for its operatic excesses.
'Ride Lonesome' and, to a lesser extent, 'The Tall T' are head and shoulders over the remainder of the other two Scott-Boettichers that I've seen.
I think The Wild Bunch is a tad overrated; I prefer 'Pat Garret'; I also love 'Cable Hogue'.

Give 'Dead Man' another look
domino harvey wrote:I think Lang's Jesse James film is my favorite (and the Nic Ray take is my least-favorite Ray movie by a longshot), though the director had a pretty dubious take on the flick he was contracted to sequelize (which wasn't a bad film at all, actually)
Thats my favourite Lang Western, but I luhve Henry King's 'Jesse James'
'The Assasination of....' might be the best Western of the past 20 years; admittedly a close call with 'Unforgiven' and the underrated 'Open Range'.
I've yet to see Nic Ray's take on the legend, though I have the DVD.
zedz wrote:The Assassination of Jesse James was pretty good (though that's not good enough ), but I saw it just after Fuller's film, and the whole final section suffered in comparison: Fuller got so much more out of so much less.
agree about the Fuller, which might be his best Western; I couldn't get past Chuck Bronson's stoic Indian; and, talk about 'blue-eyed soul',...is Jay C. Flippen the worst miscasting as a Red Indian,.......EVER?
I was very impressed with the editing of 'Assassination', and Brad Pitt's performance.
domino harvey wrote:And can you believe I actually think Red River's ending is just as brilliant as what came before it? I need to defend that shit, I know!
I'm listening, but as it stands, its long been a permanent resident of my Top Ten Westerns

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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#77 Post by domino harvey » Tue Dec 28, 2010 11:38 pm

I'll get to a reasoned defense at some point (I need to rewatch it and fearing a Criterion reissue I left it in storage, much to my regret now)

So, first film up on my Western Project Viewing was Anthony Mann's Devil's Doorway. As earlier stated, Mann will be dominating my list and I'm known to take screwy affinities to little-beloved dogs (Ask me about how Cimarron will be in my Top 20), so I was amped up for this one. But it too falls victim to the Liberal Western Curse-- Cheyenne Autumn gets a pass (barely) but while High Noon and Broken Arrow's main problems are not confined to their politics, something about it doesn't help either. So here we have Robert Taylor in a terrible performance that makes me rescind all the nice things I've been saying about him of late as the naive Native American who thinks just because he fights for his country, his country will fight for him. Injustice spreads and his land is threatened and so on. This is all pretty rote and Mann doesn't seem very interested in the story. His indifference on occasion leads to interesting set piece distractions and the Alton touch helps, but there's only really one reason to see Devil's Doorway, if you must at all, and that's Louis Calhern. Calhern's not given much on the page, but it's how he plays the villain that's really worth noting. Calhern is capable of going over the top with aplomb to rescue an underwritten role (see Heaven Can Wait or the Man in the Cloak), but resists here by not overcompensating or phoning it in and instead playing the role of the mysterious shit-stirrer with a total absence of morality either way that gives him a true and unnerving chaotic presence in the film. That Mann dispatches with everything Calhern does here so blithely damns the picture more than its other competing flaws.

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Yojimbo
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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#78 Post by Yojimbo » Wed Dec 29, 2010 12:13 am

I haven't yet seen Devil's Doorway', but 'The Furies' was a massive disappointment; too much about Barbra Stanwyck, and Walter Huston hamminess; badly paced,....
(oh, speaking of Babs, how could I have forgotten 'Forty Guns'?)

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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#79 Post by Cold Bishop » Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:02 am

I should finish up my noir viewing before I dive into the Western discussion, but I need to throw out a word of mention to the Spaghetti Westerns, which I sincerely hope don't get short-shrifted here. As far as resources, one can add Alex Cox's "10,000 Ways to Die " and Howard Hughes's "Once Upon a Time in the Italian West" to the front page. And other than the obvious Leones, or the slightly less obvious The Great Silence, I'll throw out, at the very least, Django, Kill... If You Live Shoot! and Requiescant, which also double as two key Acid Westerns.

As for the 1930s, I'm eyeing Peter Stanfield's "Hollywood, Westerns and the 1930s: the Lost Trail". Anyone read it?

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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#80 Post by Tribe » Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:53 am

I've been wanting to see Requiescant ever since Cox's write-up in Film Comment (in his 10,000 Ways to Die column). Is there any reasonably-priced way to see it?

Another vote here for Django and Django, Kill...If You Live Shoot. A couple of additional Spaghettis that are more than worthy: Death Rides a Horse, The Big Gundown and Keoma.

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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#81 Post by knives » Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:14 am

Tribe wrote:I've been wanting to see Requiescant ever since Cox's write-up in Film Comment (in his 10,000 Ways to Die column). Is there any reasonably-priced way to see it?
Unless you can find the VHS you're left to non-physical materials, though Lizzani's other western (which I haven't seen) is available via MGM as The Hills Run Red. Not sure if it's any good, but I suppose it's worth it. By the way is the Italian DVD of The White, the Yellow, and the Black english subbed and What Am I Doing in the Middle of the Revolution available anywhere?
For a genre I love so much I'm beginning to realize just how massive a gap I have for it.

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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#82 Post by PillowRock » Wed Dec 29, 2010 7:07 pm

colinr0380 wrote:However what about the genre of comedy westerns beyond Blazing Saddles? Cat Ballou, Son of Paleface and Support Your Local Sheriff!/Gunfighter! (Gunfighter being yet another version of Yojimbo). Even (shudder) all those Italian Trinity westerns with Terence Hill? Destry Rides Again would be my recommendation from this subgenre
Well, there is Paint Your Wagon, a couple of Abbott & Costello titles that I haven't seen, The Hallelujah Trail, and Disney's Apple Dumpling Gang movies with Tim Conway and Don Knotts. Depending on how much comedy is required to make it into the "comedy Western" sub-genre, maybe Silverado could go there. I'm not saying that any of these merit Top 50 Western status, just pointing out what else I can think of in the comedy sub-genre. I agree that if I was going to recommend one beyond Blazing Saddles then it would probably be Destry.

Of course, if one considers the Alaskan Gold Rush to be sufficiently "Western" to be eligible for this list then that would open the door for Chaplin's Goldrush and Hope / Crosby / Lamour's The Road to Utopia.

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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#83 Post by Mr Sausage » Wed Dec 29, 2010 7:12 pm

Another addition to the Comedy Western sub-genre is Mario Bava's Roy Colt and Winchester Jack. I wouldn't actually recommend anyone seek this out, however. It's grating and unfunny to the point that you can't believe a great director actually made it.

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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#84 Post by Yojimbo » Wed Dec 29, 2010 7:50 pm

PillowRock wrote:
colinr0380 wrote:However what about the genre of comedy westerns beyond Blazing Saddles? Cat Ballou, Son of Paleface and Support Your Local Sheriff!/Gunfighter! (Gunfighter being yet another version of Yojimbo). Even (shudder) all those Italian Trinity westerns with Terence Hill? Destry Rides Again would be my recommendation from this subgenre
Well, there is Paint Your Wagon, a couple of Abbott & Costello titles that I haven't seen, The Hallelujah Trail, and Disney's Apple Dumpling Gang movies with Tim Conway and Don Knotts. Depending on how much comedy is required to make it into the "comedy Western" sub-genre, maybe Silverado could go there. I'm not saying that any of these merit Top 50 Western status, just pointing out what else I can think of in the comedy sub-genre. I agree that if I was going to recommend one beyond Blazing Saddles then it would probably be Destry.

Of course, if one considers the Alaskan Gold Rush to be sufficiently "Western" to be eligible for this list then that would open the door for Chaplin's Goldrush and Hope / Crosby / Lamour's The Road to Utopia.
I won't be including any comedy or musical Westerns in my 50!
(although I wouldn't quite class 'My Name is Nobody' and its spaghetti ilk as a 'comedy-Western', it probably won't make the grade, anyhow )

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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#85 Post by domino harvey » Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:32 pm

The Hallelujah Trail has taken me two days and I still can't watch more than five minutes of it without wandering off. I have not been this tempted to stop watching a movie since Dr Doolittle, to give some perspective here. I mean, I'll finish it, but Christ this is one of the worst movies I've ever seen. Matt suggested it to me a while ago after I pondered whether there were any good western comedies and the answer still looks like no, unless you count Calamity Jane (it and the Harvey Girls will be the only musicals that make my Western list, as of now at least). Although to be fair to the Hallelujah Trail, I'm having trouble identifying anything that's supposed to be a joke, so maybe it isn't a comedy?

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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#86 Post by Dr Amicus » Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:52 pm

After making token appearances at the beginning of both the Noir and the 20s lists, I'll see if I can be a bit more active this time. After all, my father in law has a decent collection of Westerns on DVD to borrow...

As for comedy westerns - it's many years since I watched it, but I seem to remember Rustler's Rhapsody was surprisingly good (although I may well be shockingly mistaken). Also, being British, I think I'm contractually required to mention Carry On Cowboy.

At the moment, I can see a lot of Peckinpah in my final list (along with the requisite Mann, Boetticher and Ford). Wild Bunch will almost certainly top the list, with Ride The High Country, Cable Hogue, Junior Bonner [looks like a Western to me] and Major Dundee [note - I haven't seen the restored version] probably following in there as well (in that order). I'll need another viewing of Pat Garrett, it's been too long since I saw it to be sure of its qualities.

Also, I suspect all three of Hill's Westerns will make it - although, again, another viewing of Geronimo is required. Long Riders especially should make quite a high appearance.

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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#87 Post by Cold Bishop » Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:26 pm

I must mention Brando's One-Eyed Jacks, which is a great film, and definitely high-ranking for me. For those confused about the endless PD versions, get the Front Row, Bci/Eclipse, or Digiview (roughly in that order) for the best versions. There's also a French DVD, although it doesn't sound much better than the budget ones here.

I also think I may have found a line on a widescreen, uncut China 9, Liberty 37, so hopefully I can check that off my list soon. I'll also see if I can sniff out a copy of Requiescant, somewhere.

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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#88 Post by Yojimbo » Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:45 pm

Cold Bishop wrote:I must mention Brando's One-Eyed Jacks, which is a great film, and definitely high-ranking for me. For those confused about the endless PD versions, get the Front Row, Bci/Eclipse, or Digiview (roughly in that order) for the best versions. There's also a French DVD, although it doesn't sound much better than the budget ones here.

I also think I may have found a line on a widescreen, uncut China 9, Liberty 37, so hopefully I can check that off my list soon. I'll also see if I can sniff out a copy of Requiescant, somewhere.
Bish I've a poor quality China 9, Liberty 37 on one of those 50 movie pack sets, but that is better than no China 9, Liberty 37, but I'd certainly be interested in acquiring a good quality one even though I doubt its up to the standard of the 'Jack' films.
And If you don't already have it the French label, Carlotta, have a magnificent Hellman mini boxset with the two Jack Nicholson Westerns in clear pristine widescreen colour, 'Cockfighter', and a number of insightful documentaries.

I wouldn't quite class One-Eyed Jacks as great, though; perhaps 'noble failure' is the best epithet I could toss its way, but it might just make the grade
Dr Amicus wrote:At the moment, I can see a lot of Peckinpah in my final list (along with the requisite Mann, Boetticher and Ford). Wild Bunch will almost certainly top the list, with Ride The High Country, Cable Hogue, Junior Bonner [looks like a Western to me] and Major Dundee [note - I haven't seen the restored version] probably following in there as well (in that order). I'll need another viewing of Pat Garrett, it's been too long since I saw it to be sure of its qualities.

Also, I suspect all three of Hill's Westerns will make it - although, again, another viewing of Geronimo is required. Long Riders especially should make quite a high appearance.
I've yet to be convinced by the grandiose claims its fans make for 'Major Dundee' ; I'll finally get around to its most complete 'bells and whistles' version that I acquired a couple of years ago; because its Peckinpah, who's second only to Ford, in my book, as a director of Westerns, it may just sneak in.

It doesn't matter what version of 'Pat Garret' I watch; if only for two scenes in particular, its a Western Masterpice; the elegiac Slim Pickens/Katy Jurado scene is rightly acclaimed but for me the Jack Elam gunfight scene, including its prelude, is at least its equal.

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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#89 Post by Yojimbo » Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:57 pm

Cold Bishop wrote:I should finish up my noir viewing before I dive into the Western discussion, but I need to throw out a word of mention to the Spaghetti Westerns, which I sincerely hope don't get short-shrifted here. As far as resources, one can add Alex Cox's "10,000 Ways to Die " and Howard Hughes's "Once Upon a Time in the Italian West" to the front page. And other than the obvious Leones, or the slightly less obviousThe Gr eat Silence, I'll throw out, at the very least, Django, Kill... If You Live Shoot! and Requiescant, which also double as two key Acid Westerns.

As for the 1930s, I'm eyeing Peter Stanfield's "Hollywood, Westerns and the 1930s: the Lost Trail". Anyone read it?
Django, Kill... If You Live Shoot![/b] and Requiescant are serious contenders for me; might even be shoo-ins.
I'd also throw out 'A Bullet For The General' for your consideration.
And this might be the time I finally give my 'Sabata' trilogy a look!
The Gr eat Silence is a fine film, but I wonder is it lacking in that requisite craziness that the best non-Leone spaghettis contain.

There's a fun 1960's German Western I have on VHS, - I think it was part of a series also, which I might drop in, if only because of its craziness
(I think it was actually filmed in the former Yugoslavia!)

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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#90 Post by Lemmy Caution » Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:13 am

Comic Westerns:

Ride 'Em Cowboy (1942) is prime Abbott & Costello, complete with gambling, Indians, bucking broncos, and Ella Fitzgerald. One of their smoother, more complete films.

Way Out West (1937) is pretty good Laurel and Hardy, but it's been a long time since I've seen it. If my L&H box has that, I'll give it a refresh.

I nearly bought an unsubbed Lemonade Joe, but the pic quality was fairly iffy as well.
It looks uniquely odd.

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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#91 Post by domino harvey » Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:15 am

Richard Brooks' the Professionals was a nice palette cleanser after the cinematic dross of the Hallelujah Trail. As an Oscar fetishist, it's interesting to note that this was the last Western that the Academy really paid any serious attention to for almost 25 years. I don't think Brooks' direction really warranted his nomination, but the film fits the pattern for his output: he's quite adept at letting actors carry on, which is good if you're someone like Robert Ryan or Lee Marvin, but this method leaves lesser actors stranded, which is bad if you're Woody Strode or Jack Palance, whose character is entirely defined by looking confused. And while Brooks' screenplay gets off some nice bon mots (I particularly liked the line about "100-proof women, 90-proof whiskey, and 14-karat gold"), it can veer in the expository (the entire telegraphed business with the upside-down crosses). Brooks is also not a particularly good director of action, which could have been deadly in a film like this if the pleasures didn't lie elsewhere in its codes of professionalism. The idea that the ragtag bunch of experts are contracted to do a job, regardless of whether they agree with it after certain facts come to light, drives the film with a sense of reluctant momentum. When characters don't do what's needed of them, they are quickly punished (see Robert Ryan's animal lover's refusal to kill the horses early in the film) until only determined "professional" behavior can get them out alive. I must admit, I am predisposed to enjoy films with well-defined codes of conduct, even codes I disagree with, and by those standards alone this is worthwhile entertainment.

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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#92 Post by Cold Bishop » Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:53 am

And tricky Burt Lancaster, always the clever actor-producer. He gives Lee Marvin top-billing, but gives himself the best scene (the showdown w/ Jesus Raza and Chiquita).

I though it was an entertaining film, but coming ten years after Vera Cruz, it makes clear why a game-changer like The Wild Bunch was necessary.

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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#93 Post by domino harvey » Fri Dec 31, 2010 1:20 pm

Law and Order (Nathan Juran 1953) Now this is a great western, and why I'm excited about this list project. Unlike noirs (or even musicals to some extent), it seems like most discussion of westerns falls into auteurism first with exceptions only granted for those that disrupt the status quo. But there are just as many unsung and overlooked Hollywood westerns out there as noirs, I bet, and I've snatched up a ton of non-auteur works on sheer guesswork to add to my pile and I came up with a jackpot on my first hand drawn from the deck.

I am admittedly more forgiving of Ronald Reagan's acting than most, but he is especially good in his role as a somewhat effete but stoic man of principle foisted into positions of authority despite all effort to avoid them. I'm surprised Reagan didn't do more westerns, really, because he is well-suited to this sort of role. The film follows the logic of personal code to its conclusion and remains tight and entertaining throughout. By the time Reagan gets into a climactic fistfight with the villain, who has a metal hand, and various garden tools are implemented, I thought to myself "I've seen this scene fifty times before, but it's working remarkably well"-- which could also be a fitting summation of the film. It's the kind of movie that is so good while breaking no new ground that my first reaction was apologetic: I'm sorry I enjoyed this so much more than most revisionist westerns that think this sort of film product is dumb. But I'm not really sorry at all.

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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#94 Post by Tribe » Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:30 pm

Alex Cox has some nice things to say about The Culpepper Cattle Co. I remember seeing it advertised back when I was a teenager, but never saw it. Anyone think it's worth picking up? Same for The Great Minnesota Northfield Raid.

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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#95 Post by domino harvey » Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:36 pm

Tribe wrote:Alex Cox has some nice things to say about The Culpepper Cattle Co. I remember seeing it advertised back when I was a teenager, but never saw it. Anyone think it's worth picking up?
It's in my stack, I'll move it up

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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#96 Post by Yojimbo » Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:45 pm

Tribe wrote:Alex Cox has some nice things to say about The Culpepper Cattle Co. I remember seeing it advertised back when I was a teenager, but never saw it. Anyone think it's worth picking up? Same for The Great Minnesota Northfield Raid.
Its one of the best of the revisionist Westerns, directed by Dick Richards, he of the marvellous 'Farewell My Lovely' remake; it will probably make my 50, and, while The Great Minnesota Northfield Raid may not, its definitely worth checking out, if only for Jesse James completist purposes.
I have both on DVD though, and will be giving them both another look, in widescreen stereo.

I think I was one of the 30 or so people who attended a screening of 'Culpepper' on its original cinema release

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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#97 Post by Yojimbo » Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:51 pm

domino harvey wrote:Law and Order (Nathan Juran 1953) Now this is a great western, and why I'm excited about this list project. Unlike noirs (or even musicals to some extent), it seems like most discussion of westerns falls into auteurism first with exceptions only granted for those that disrupt the status quo. But there are just as many unsung and overlooked Hollywood westerns out there as noirs, I bet, and I've snatched up a ton of non-auteur works on sheer guesswork to add to my pile and I came up with a jackpot on my first hand drawn from the deck.

I am admittedly more forgiving of Ronald Reagan's acting than most, but he is especially good in his role as a somewhat effete but stoic man of principle foisted into positions of authority despite all effort to avoid them. I'm surprised Reagan didn't do more westerns, really, because he is well-suited to this sort of role. The film follows the logic of personal code to its conclusion and remains tight and entertaining throughout. By the time Reagan gets into a climactic fistfight with the villain, who has a metal hand, and various garden tools are implemented, I thought to myself "I've seen this scene fifty times before, but it's working remarkably well"-- which could also be a fitting summation of the film. It's the kind of movie that is so good while breaking no new ground that my first reaction was apologetic: I'm sorry I enjoyed this so much more than most revisionist westerns that think this sort of film product is dumb. But I'm not really sorry at all.
Speaking of Ronald Reagan's Westerns reminds me of 'Tennessee's Partner' a fun Allan Dwan Western in glorious technicolour which displays Rhonda Flemings flaming redhead to perfection.
Its not up to 'Slightly Scarlet' standards, but I preferred it to the more acclaimed 'Silver Lode', and it might just sneak in the low 40s, to give my list more breadth

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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#98 Post by Cold Bishop » Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:03 pm

domino harvey wrote:Law and Order (Nathan Juran 1953)
This is actually a remake of one of the few 1930s Westerns I've seen [Law and Order (Edward L. Cahn, 1932)]... and a pretty damn good one at that. And one of the few Westerns I've seen that lives up to the sort of pre-code nastiness usually seen only in gangster pictures and sex melodramas of the time (which is really one reason I'm so interested in the 1930s westerns... there surely must be more of these "pre-code" oaters lying around somewhere alongside those typical b-serials). I'm not sure how I feel about a remake (the "Best Western Movies" guide calls it "tepid" compared to the original) but it sounds like it may have more than enough of its own flourishes to be worthwhile.

The 1932 version is another film I'll see if I can track down for those interested.

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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#99 Post by Tribe » Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:48 pm

I want to revisit One-Eyed Jacks...what's the best looking release out there? I also have in my Amazon cart: Soldier Blue, The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford, The Great Northfield Minnesota Raid, Forty Guns and The Culpepper Cattle Co....any suggestions for one or two more to add? I'm pretty much on top of the "major" spaghetti westerns and I've seen and am still familiar with the Hollywood classics (Red River, Rio Bravo, The Searchers, Ox-Bow Incident, High Noon, etc.), as well as the more cultish westerns such as Johnny Guitar and Rancho Notorious....I'd like to catch the revisionist American westerns from the 60s and 70s....any additional suggestions?

EDIT: Any good things about Warlock? I loved the novel on which it was based.

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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#100 Post by Cold Bishop » Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:56 pm

Good film. Not as great as the novel.

I included my guide to One-Eyed Jacks dvds on the last page. But to repeat: Front Row, Bci/Eclipse, Digiview... in that order. If you pay more than $10 for any of them, you're probably getting ripped off.

As for revisionist westerns... do I really even need to say which movie I'd recommend?

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