The Noir List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Project)

[domino harvey]

Maybe the presence of Bogie just precludes a film from being a noir -- the strength he projects feels at odds with the genre.

In A Lonely Place?

And Dead Reckoning and The Big Sleep, among others

[Titus]

And Dead Reckoning and The Big Sleep, among others

I don't know, The Big Sleep is sort of in the same boat as Falcon with me -- Dead Reckoning might fit, but I don't like the film enough to really care one way or the other.

I thought about qualifying the comment with In a Lonely Place, though. The exception proves the rule.

[Yojimbo]

Just throwing this out here, but it might be fun for voters to include, along with their Top 50s, their votes for best Femme Fatale, Good Girl, Guy in the Wrong Place at the Wrong Time, and Bad Guy. Kind of like a movie-version of the Forum Awards? I dunno, just a thought

what about 'best cuckold', seeing as its noir, an' all?

[Yojimbo]

The movie is way too uneven with a ton of draggy TV staticness for me to consider a place on my list for it, but Wallach is great and I loved his mistake at the end concerning The Man. I actually listened to the commentary last night and he's obviously going for a Howard Stern lets-see-how-far-I-can-push-this-public-persona thing. I did like how he described a location as being shot on "Polk Street-- that's P-O-K-E"

I really enjoyed Ellroy's earlier commentary (I think it was Crime Wave - yet another top ten film for me), but with this one he really was all schtick and not much else, which got pretty tedious.

While I'm here, a few favourites that might be overlooked:

Somewhere in the Night - For me, the ultimate noir-as-bad-dream film. The plot is so outré it could have been slipped into Inland Empire intact, and the whole thing has a stiff, baffling atmosphere I can't shake.

The Thief - The closest noir ever got to Jeanne Dielman, a hypnotic, wordless procedural of spying, stalking and killing.

Shockproof - Who would have thought that Fuller + Sirk would actually work? The material is pretty boilerplate, but those two give some amazing inflections to several sequences.

The Amazing Mr. X - In this case the material is rather wretched, but Alton's photography is so spectacular it carries the entire film, transforming a tawdry little scam into a richly imagined dream vision.

And responding to Matt - it sounds like we're in neighbouring puritanical camps with regards to genre definitions, but I hadn't even considered Notorious, though I'll put that on my 'reconsider (baby)' list too.

To be fair, zedz, I think you really have to be in the right mood for Ellroy's commentaries: I know many people who hate his 'Crime Wave' commentary, and although I love it, I can understand why they think as they do

(and I'm sure I've got Shockproof, somewhere!)

And, speaking of Alton, surely there's no need to even do a poll of best noir cinematographer?
(and, as 'Slightly Scarlet' proved, he excelled in colour, also)

[Cold Bishop]

But that's not fair, since plenty of noirs had money and work. I'll have to think about why I don't associate his work more readily.

Because Hitchcock was a genre unto himself. Try as I might, and regardless on how eloquently reasoned the arguments for it may be, I have never been able to think of a single film of his as comfortably "Film Noir".

As for Foreign Noir: I think its harsh to completely disregard all examples, as some others certainly will, but I'll also agree that there are very few films that are the genuine article.

Re: British Noir: The recent retrospective did a good job of highlight the "genre", although some come closer to being noir (cases could be made for It Always Rains on Sunday, Brighton Rock, some of the ex-pat films by Losey and Dmytryk), than others (it is my opinion that Carol Reed never made a film noir). Surprisingly, the sole British film I feel comfortable calling "film noir" was largely absent from the programme: Alberto Cavalcanti's magnficent They Made Me a Fugitive, available from Kino.

Re: French Noir: the problem I see with French "noir" is that it is trapped between two worlds, overlapping with real "Film Noir", but never quite achieving it. One one hand, you have a slew of films that seem to have their roots planted in "poetic realism", and as such are much more proto-noir than Noir itself (ignoring the poetic realist films of the 30s themselves, Clouzot and Becker fall in line here). On the other hand, you have starting in the 50s, a brand of film that seems to be aware of "Film Noir" as an American genre, and in that self-awareness, you have the beginnings of Neo-Noir as opposed to genuine Film Noir (the obvious candidate being Bob Le Flambeur, which I've always considered neo-noir ground zero). The major exception: Jules Dassin's Riffifi, precisely because it has a genuine American Noir filmmaker at the helm, and while the material had the potential to be a self-aware neo-noir (Melville did circle the project), Dassin can make the Paris underworld seem genuinenly Noirish that same way he did London in Night and the City.

Japan is a bit more difficult for me, as I don't have the grasp of the history of the crime film there, but it certainly seems to stretch somewhere between Kurosawa's two 40s crime films: Drunken Angel and Stray Dog, and ends somewhere in the peak of the Nikkatsu Noir (and Seijun Suzuki's explosion of the genre).

[zq333zq]

Just a very short preliminary response. I LOVE this topic, but I shall have to give it much more thought, and I will get back to you asap. In your honor, I will re-watch Too Late for Tears tonight. When oh when will a decent DVD appear? *sigh*

[colinr0380]

Re: French noir. Would Lift To The Scaffold/Elevator To The Gallows be allowable? Or Les Diaboliques?

...let me be the first to volunteer Ida Lupino's The Hitch-Hiker. I don't know yet if it will be at the top of my list (off the top of my head, that's probably going to be Force of Evil), but it'll be darn close.

I really like Force of Evil too, probably the best film about the corrupting power of money - love that walk through the deserted early morning Wall Street!

I also agree about The Hitch-Hiker - perhaps another neglected film in a similar vein is The Devil Thumbs A Ride. And I'd like to put in a mention for Split Second, the "don't use a nuclear bomb testing range for a hideout" film!

[cysiam]

I watched Siodmak's The File on Thelma Jordon yesterday. All the pieces are there (the patsy, femme fatale, betrayal, shadows) but it didn't do it for me. The plot's contrived but there's also just something that seems to be lacking throughout.

It's still worth a view if for nothing more than Stanwyck, who's great as always, and...

SpoilerShow

Cigarette lighter to the eyeball! Yowzas.

I don't think it has a dvd release but it's available streaming several places online.

[zq333zq]

"I watched Siodmak's The File on Thelma Jordon yesterday. All the pieces are there (the patsy, femme fatale, betrayal, shadows) but it didn't do it for me. The plot's contrived but there's also just something that seems to be lacking throughout."

I agree with you. No Man of Her Own is a much more entertaining flick, IMO - as is Witness to Murder. Solid Stanwyck noirs these are.

[Hopscotch]

Ulmer's Detour gets a really spirited defense from Naremore in More than Night. I've got to watch it again to determine whether his praise is merited.

As for neo-noir, does Cutter's Way qualify?

[Yojimbo]

Ulmer's Detour gets a really spirited defense from Naremore in More than Night. I've got to watch it again to determine whether his praise is merited.

As for neo-noir, does Cutter's Way qualify?

I can't imagine 'Detour' needing any defence??

I wouldn't include 'Cutter's Way'

[knives]

Re: French noir. Would Lift To The Scaffold/Elevator To The Gallows be allowable? Or Les Diaboliques?

I wouldn't say Les Diaboliques as that feels more like a mystery film in the vein of Poe or Hitchcock, ditto Le Corbeau. Though I am treating Port of Shadows as one as it seems to have all of the elements even if police don't figure as well. As for Elevator, I've always seen it regarded as noir so I don't see why not. It's definitely more noirish than Alphaville which I have on my short list.
Also for the people arguing for a era limit, for their own lists, would thst mean that if something, like say Laura, had been made fifteen or so years later but rather identically would that year be all the difference needed to preclude it from your list?

[Matt]

Le Corbeau is probably going to end up on my list, but not Les Diaboliques (just don't fancy it much anymore), but I think it wouldn't be terribly out of place on a noir list.

And who's arguing for an era limit? I've seen a couple of people mention that they're not going to put any on their list, but I don't see anyone saying that others shouldn't. I think what we're seeing now is people setting their own personal parameters, which is exactly what was intended.

[domino harvey]

And Dead Reckoning and The Big Sleep, among others

I don't know, The Big Sleep is sort of in the same boat as Falcon with me -- Dead Reckoning might fit, but I don't like the film enough to really care one way or the other.

I thought about qualifying the comment with In a Lonely Place, though. The exception proves the rule.

I'm embarrassed to admit that I forgot my favorite Bogart noir, Dark Passage, Delmer Daves' trip to the Lady in the Lake well (though he abandons it after about forty minutes). A criminal goes in for plastic surgery and walks out looking like Bogey-- hope he kept his receipt!

[knives]

Le Corbeau is probably going to end up on my list, but not Les Diaboliques (just don't fancy it much anymore), but I think it wouldn't be terribly out of place on a noir list.

And who's arguing for an era limit? I've seen a couple of people mention that they're not going to put any on their list, but I don't see anyone saying that others shouldn't. I think what we're seeing now is people setting their own personal parameters, which is exactly what was intended.

I meant self-imposed limit. Sorry for any misunderstandings. Le Corbeau really tetters on the edge for me though. I'm sure a convincing enough of an argument will let me recount it. I've definitely considered much more oddball choices. It's funny, especially considering my eyerolling at the Hollywood restriction people, but the difference between Port and Le Corbeau to me is feeling. It feels like a Poe story to me so I stopped considering it which really is absurd. If that's absurd though does that mean discounting a noir styled Holmes adaptation, for example, is also absurd? What prevents this sort of mystery thing from being considered, at least by myself, from being noir?
Interesting enough of a question, probably a anti-climatic answer in the wait.

[domino harvey]

Another one down from the first volume of Bad Girls of Noir, Bad For Each Other: worse for the audience. Not really a noir but stuck in here because of Lizabeth Scott and the Horace McCoy source material. Hard-boiled dialog is so close to parody that it doesn't take much in the delivery to tip it over into unintentional howls, and putting Charlton Heston in the lead is like coming up beside hard-boiled dialog and shoving it as hard as you can. Heston over-reads every line in that Hestony fashion of his and the whole thing turns into an SNL skit. The plot is all blah blah blah something about money not being the be all end all-- see, how can this be a noir?! I did love how the major romantic thread ended with the smallest amount of dramatic interest possible:

"I'd still like to marry you"
"Nah"
"Oh. Okay, bye"
"Cya. Good luck and junk"

The biggest lesson learned from the film: Falling eighteen inches to the ground in a coal mine will somehow result in death from blood loss.

[Yojimbo]

Another one down from the first volume of Bad Girls of Noir, Bad For Each Other: worse for the audience. Not really a noir but stuck in here because of Lizabeth Scott and the Horace McCoy source material. Hard-boiled dialog is so close to parody that it doesn't take much in the delivery to tip it over into unintentional howls, and putting Charlton Heston in the lead is like coming up beside hard-boiled dialog and shoving it as hard as you can. Heston over-reads every line in that Hestony fashion of his and the whole thing turns into an SNL skit. The plot is all blah blah blah something about money not being the be all end all-- see, how can this be a noir?! I did love how the major romantic thread ended with the smallest amount of dramatic interest possible:

"I'd still like to marry you"
"Nah"
"Oh. Okay, bye"
"Cya. Good luck and junk"

The biggest lesson learned from the film: Falling eighteen inches to the ground in a coal mine will somehow result in death from blood loss.

Speaking of Horace McCoy, does 'They Shoot Horses...' qualify?
Hardly prototypical noir, although it probably beats most candidates in the doom-laden stakes

[domino harvey]

I cannot conjure any definition of noir under which it would qualify. And this is coming from the only person to vote for it in the 1960s List

[Murdoch]

If your definition of noir is "bad stuff happens", then sure.

[zedz]

If your definition of noir is "bad stuff happens", then sure.

It's surely only a matter of time before somebody suggests voting for Plan 9 from Outer Space (right period, right budget, dead chick, most of the objects in the film are casting shadows). All of a sudden, The Day the Earth Stood Still is sounding like an eminently reasonable inclusion!

EDIT: I was just replying to a PM and thought about Night of the Hunter for the first time. This would be a likely list-topper for me, but it's so sui generis I'm having a hard time justifying a classification as noir (but I'm very very tempted to include it on the inevitable Musicals genre list). Any opinions?

[knives]

I'm reluctant to call it anything, but Night of the Hunter. Nevertheless it is standing at number one on my preliminary list. I'll just blame Mitchum and geometry for me thinking this way. Though if it gives credence IMDB calls it a noir.
Also, if we're going to call any Wood a noir it would have to be Jailbait.

[Finch]

There is a reportedly fairly good German DVD of Lang's The Blue Gardenia (mentioned on the first page) available on amazon.de

http://www.amazon.de/Blue-Gardenia-Eine ... 717&sr=1-1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Reading through this thread, I decided to finally pick up Le Corbeau (Optimum), the two Garfield pics Force of Evil and Body and Soul, and It Always Rains on Sunday. The Thief sounds very intriguing too (thanks zedz for the recommendation).

[Yojimbo]

If your definition of noir is "bad stuff happens", then sure.

It's surely only a matter of time before somebody suggests voting for Plan 9 from Outer Space (right period, right budget, dead chick, most of the objects in the film are casting shadows). All of a sudden, The Day the Earth Stood Still is sounding like an eminently reasonable inclusion!

EDIT: I was just replying to a PM and thought about Night of the Hunter for the first time. This would be a likely list-topper for me, but it's so sui generis I'm having a hard time justifying a classification as noir (but I'm very very tempted to include it on the inevitable Musicals genre list). Any opinions?

If we ever conduct a 'Grimms Brothers Fairy Tale lookalike' poll I'll definitely include Night of the Hunter.

As regards the likes of 'Plan 9' and The Day the Earth Stood Still I just use the same principles as I have for excluding 'Scarface': both have always been classified in their own distinct genre, as sci-fi in their case, and we should let sleeping dogs lie.
But those marvellous Fred and Ginger movies are a marvellous hybrid of Musicals, which they're generally classified as, and romantic/screwball comedy, that Matt's solution for them seems eminently sensible to me

[brendanjc]

perhaps another neglected film in a similar vein is The Devil Thumbs A Ride.

I was only going to post to suggest this since I figured no one else would have seen it, so I'm pleasantly surprised to see it mentioned already. I can't overemphasize how much fun that movie is. I don't think it's available on DVD (definitely not in the US, at least).

I've been toying with the idea of trying to get a genre list project going as well so I'm glad to see it happening (I was thinking horror or, though perhaps not really a genre, documentary). However, it couldn't have started with a more contentious 'genre', and already the pages of the thread are filled with conflict about whether films should be considered noir or not. In the vein of giving away awards for Best Femme Fatale, etc, I propose an award for best definition of 'film noir' by a forum member . I'm not sure how to go about ranking films that I think are great but aren't ideal examples of noir vs films that are the epitome of the genre but are less appealing given their own merits.

[zedz]

In the vein of giving away awards for Best Femme Fatale, etc, I propose an award for best definition of 'film noir' by a forum member .

I don't know about a vote, but it might be interesting / useful for those submitting their lists to come up with a brief working definition if they have one. Off the top of my head, I suppose mine is something like "American crime film made between 1940 and the early 1960s that's characterised by darkness in one or more areas, such as visual style or character psychology."

Given the films I instinctively consider noir, many of the other characteristics of the genre (e.g. presence of a 'femme fatale', black and white photography, an urban setting) are optional, and I'm currently making a single exception to 'American' for The Upturned Glass, though that might change - I certainly don't need it to make up the numbers. One aspect of that definition which hasn't really been discussed is "crime film", although I think most of us are taking it for granted. For me, if there's no crime, there's no noir, so I'd exclude Clash by Night (if I remember the plot correctly) even though Warners went and stuck it in a Noir box. For me it's just a melodrama in the dark.