I am going to quote this back to you once everyone starts griping about the coaster they don’t need just like they did for the Blu-Ray/DVD combos. What a horrible time to be alive those years were
Criterion and UHD
- domino harvey
- Dot Com Dom
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 pm
Re: Criterion and UHD
- therewillbeblus
- Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:40 pm
Re: Criterion and UHD
Our library does handle both blu-day and DVD, but definitely more of the latter. In general it’s amazing how many people think of DVD as the definitive format for physical media despite enjoying higher definition content on streaming platforms. For example nearly every time I have someone over and they see my collection, they refer to them all as DVDs despite my continually pointing out the difference, and I overhear, “I’ll wait till that comes out on DVD” almost universally from those I engage in discussions around film who aren’t collectors. I almost never hear people talk about blu-ray. I understand that Criterion collectors tend to be more passionate and knowledgeable about top quality PQ, but I’ve had plenty of folks request Criterion films as presents or ask eagerly for recommendations with an intention to purchase who only have a DVD player or more often a computer to watch discs on, and even some heavier collectors who choose DVD as a format. I almost always buy DVDs as birthday and Christmas presents for people for this reason, as many of them don’t even own blu-ray players (somehow).soundchaser wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:28 amOur library system still exclusively loans DVDs, so I suspect Criterion gets more sales from those than we’d imagine.
This isn’t an argument against Criterion upgrading but in my experience a significant portion of the population of film-lovers default to DVD all these years later and don’t appear interested in the change. Just one man’s experience of course.
- movielocke
- Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:44 am
Criterion and UHD
I think you’re definitely right that this would The the reason they can’t do blu uhd dual formatswo17 wrote:If they can keep the MSRP for standard releases at $40
In 1998, they set prices at $39.99 adjusted for inflation, that’s bit over $63 in 2019. I sort of expect them to price UhDs at $49.99 given the manufacturing will be really expensive and they’re only going to sell a single digit percent of the Blu-ray numbers, so the base price has to be higher to Cover the lower unit sales. (I wouldn’t be surprised at a base price of $59.99 actually)
Titles with fanatical and broader customer bases like Wes Anderson or David Lynch might get a lower price because higher sales numbers are expected.
- movielocke
- Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:44 am
Criterion and UHD
Libraries, even big ones, are pretty price sensitive and mostly are exclusively dvd, here’s recent examples from la public library for four titles never before on disc in the US (or at least with no pre existing copies in their vast system)
Lowest MSRP
The inland sea - 28 copies
Highly awarded film (sight and sound)
Cloud capped star - 14 copies
Old Hollywood obscurity
Cluny Brown - 7 copies
Highest MSRP
Koker trilogy - 0 copies
It sort of suggests that they balk at buying most criterions because of the price, but are more likely to include films that are highly regarded possibly because they circulate more often than old Hollywood obscurities.
Beverly Hills public library has the biggest blu ray collection of any library I’ve ever seen, but then that is the rare library that has no price sensitivity at all.
Lowest MSRP
The inland sea - 28 copies
Highly awarded film (sight and sound)
Cloud capped star - 14 copies
Old Hollywood obscurity
Cluny Brown - 7 copies
Highest MSRP
Koker trilogy - 0 copies
It sort of suggests that they balk at buying most criterions because of the price, but are more likely to include films that are highly regarded possibly because they circulate more often than old Hollywood obscurities.
Beverly Hills public library has the biggest blu ray collection of any library I’ve ever seen, but then that is the rare library that has no price sensitivity at all.
- tenia
- Ask Me About My Bassoon
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:13 am
Re: Criterion and UHD
Embraced is way too strong of a word. At best, most of them are still testing the format : in the US, Synapse has released 1, Kino 1, Shout only 12 documentary ones (in a very spaced-out way), VS will do Tammy and the T-Rex, and I think that's it. In France, TF1 released 3 catalogue titles (1 being Casino) and 1 non-catalogue, Pathé 2 (including Apocalypse Now), M6 1 catalogue and 1 non-catalogue (a 2nd one will arrive next year), Le chat qui fume 1, ESC 2 (Dawn of the Dead and Halloween) plus 1 upcoming one end of this year (Evil Dead) and Carlotta 1 (Christine, as part of a Collector's Edition, which is currently selling out - 3000 copies) and Metropolitan a few but only new Lionsgate titles like John Wick 3. Studio Canal are the biggest UHD conveyors in France and, well, they're not small at all. Second Sight will release 1 (Dawn of the Dead), Dogwoof 1 (Apollo 11) and that's it for the UK. Capelight did a few in Germany (Burning, Oldboy and soon Rollerball, and they only started in June 2019 so it's very new).
None are releasing catalogue movies on UHDs on a regular basis. Almost none are releasing UHDs on a regular basis, actually, except Metropolitan and possibly Capelight.
Yes and no.mfunk9786 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:55 pmIt's also improving. UHD is just as much of an improvement over Blu-ray as it was over DVD - a quadrupling of resolution. The idea that Criterion would be embracing of the initial format change and then resistant to this one doesn't make much sense. Just because this hasn't happened yet is no evidence that it's never going to happen. I've beaten this same drum in this thread before, but if you consider yourself a skeptic of this inevitability, take a look at the first few pages of the thread on Criterion and Blu-ray before you recycle any of the same talking points from a decade+ ago
UHD isn't just as much of an improvement : it quadruples the resolution, but also offers HDR and WCG, while BD didn't upgrade colors over DVD.
But 3 things are compensating for that :
- you have to buy everything or nothing at all if you want to get technical with SDR conversions and face problematic contrast/brightness, meaning you can't smooth purchases over time.
- law of dimishing returns.
- there's no general reason for people who didn't bother upgrading to BD discs to bother upgrading to UHD discs, making it a niche of a niche.
There was already a HUGE difference in how PS2 boosted DVD vs how PS3 "boosted" BD. As such, it's quite clear that there is a non-negligible split between owning a VG console with a BD player and those actually using this to play BD. The same will happen for UHD, probably in a worse version of it.
The French specialised magazine Les années Laser looked in April 2019 at production costs for DVD, BD and UHD. There are 4 main cost factors : Premastering, mastering, pressing (they choose 5000 copies as a per-unit price) and logistics (including transportation). The figures were :swo17 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:19 pmost, what, 6x DVDs in terms of manufacturing? That certainly kept away labels like Second Run for many years. I don't know what those metrics are for UHD currently but no way Criterion seriously commits to this format until the manufacturing costs come down to the point where it makes sense financially, if that happens at all.
DVD : 600-2000€ / 150€ / 0.5-0.6€ per unit / 0.7-1€ per unit = 0.12-0.4 + 0.03 + 0.5-0.6 + 0.7-1 = 1.35-2.03€ per DVD
BD: 1000-3000€ / 850€ / 0.9-1.2€ / 0.7-1€ = 0.2-0.6 + 0.17 + 0.9-1.2 + 0.7-1 = 1.97-2.97€ per BD
UHD : 8000-20000€ / 2000€ / 2-3€ / 0.7-1€ = 1.6-4 + 0.4 + 2-3 + 0.7-1 = 4.7-8.4€ per UHD
Even if reasoning that the market is well below 5000 copies batch runs for boutique labels, that still gives a UHD costing at least 1.6 times more than a BD, and possibly 4.3 times more.
Manufacturers offer packs to reduce costs, but even so, a DVD still costs 50-60cts, a BD 0.9-1.2€ and a UHD 2-3€ so a similar cost difference remains between BD and UHD (between 1.66 and 3.33 times more).
Technically, their MSRP should be high enough already to absorb UHD costs (compared to other labels around), but I doubt they'd keep it and like movielocke, I suspect they would instead increase it by $10. The real question being however the price people will pay in the end (since it's not MSRP anyway), and how many of them would buy UHD (which will obviously answer how much price need to compensate for smaller sales).
- senseabove
- Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:07 am
Re: Criterion and UHD
There's a part of me that thinks a non-negligible reason for BR's lack of traction with the general, unconcerned populace is that it doesn't have so handy and brief a written name as DVD, nor does "blu-ray" roll off the tongue well enough to trump the convenience of so similar a concept and so universally adopted a product. But if that had any validity, "HD-DVD" probably should've won the format wars just for familiarity's sake...therewillbeblus wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:54 amOur library does handle both blu-day and DVD, but definitely more of the latter. In general it’s amazing how many people think of DVD as the definitive format for physical media despite enjoying higher definition content on streaming platforms. For example nearly every time I have someone over and they see my collection, they refer to them all as DVDs despite my continually pointing out the difference, and I overhear, “I’ll wait till that comes out on DVD” almost universally from those I engage in discussions around film who aren’t collectors. I almost never hear people talk about blu-ray.
- tenia
- Ask Me About My Bassoon
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:13 am
Re: Criterion and UHD
I do think BD is just overkill for 80% of the general audience, and there isn't much more to it than this.
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- Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 12:45 am
Re: Criterion and UHD
For many, DVD was the trendy way to consume movies in the 2000s, till streaming overtook it -- obviously BD has never had that cultural impact.
They didn't even release their whole slate on BD for a while.
My impression was the single biggest factor in killing the dual-format was libraries and universities. UHD/BD dual format wouldn't have those issues. Assume DVD buyers not wanting to pay an extra $10 for a BD disc they wouldn't use was up there too. If CC were somehow able to keep the $40 SRP, ramping up UHD would be a lot easier, but that doesn't sound practical. The first few years Criterion were putting out BD, there was a market for them among BD collectors who wouldn't ordinarily buy the films, because they were hungry for older titles -- anything in addition to current product -- on BD. UHD collectors, though obviously a smaller group, are probably even more hungry for older titles. Criterion buyers have been somewhat conditioned to pay $50 SRP for 2-BD titles. If Criterion customers who have gone UHD or are considering it are willing to fork over $50 for Othello and On the Waterfront, they might be willing to pay $50 for a high-profile UHD like a Wes Anderson. I think eventually they'll release some titles on UHD, because Criterion is not going to abandon physical media in the foreseeable future and, maybe, not as long as they're in business.For combo packs I wonder if it makes more sense to package UHD and BD together then bringing back BD-DVD dual formats. People who are still buying DVDs are hopeless and they are not going to upgrade if they haven't already. Its those BD player owners that needed to pushed/enticed towards upgrading.
This is also what major studios have been doing where they have started packaging updated BDs with UHDs without releasing them standalone. It will futureproof the buyers without forcing them to upgrade or making them anxious about double dipping.
- tenia
- Ask Me About My Bassoon
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:13 am
Re: Criterion and UHD
They indeed stopped doing DVD-only releases (outside Eclipse sets) in August 2010, 18 months after their first BD release.
- TwoTecs
- Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:26 pm
Re: Criterion and UHD
Mean Streets was shot on 35 mm. GBH might look cleaner because of the difference in lenses but resolution wise they are the same (ofc Mean Streets, being 1.85, is cropped more). UHD just does a way better job of handling grain and if encoded properly, the compression is much better than BD. The color and contrast most definitely would be improved as UHD does a better job at reproducing the color depth of film.bugsy_pal wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:21 amI think that Criterion will only put out UHD versions for selected titles that can clearly benefit from the extra resolution, eg. Grand Budapest Hotel. I'm not sure whether it would be worth it for something like Mean Streets - not sure if the film has enough resolution to benefit, but perhaps the colour would be improved. As for Citizen Kane - I'd love to see what UHD could do for the film, but it may not be much of an improvement over the lovely Warner bluray...
Not that I am saying that it would be feasible for every film to get a UHD release but any film competently shot on 35mm will benefit from one.
- mfunk9786
- Under Chris' Protection
- Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:43 pm
- Location: Philadelphia, PA
Re: Criterion and UHD
Oh dude, quote away - of course this would happen, "everyone would be happy" was said with my tongue in my cheek. That being said, the combos were great the first time around and Criterion should have never relented. If they're not releasing every title in UHD right away, it seems like the ideal solution to just bundle it with the Blu-ray release (or vice versa, however you look at it). And an MSRP bump to $45 might be inevitable anyway somewhere down the line, but I don't see a reason why they couldn't do this and stay at $40...domino harvey wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:31 amI am going to quote this back to you once everyone starts griping about the coaster they don’t need just like they did for the Blu-Ray/DVD combos. What a horrible time to be alive those years were
Right. It makes little sense that we'd never see the prices creep up - UHD being part of some of them might be a nice way to soften the blow of an increase to $45 or $50 as the standard MSRP.movielocke wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:09 amIn 1998, they set prices at $39.99 adjusted for inflation, that’s bit over $63 in 2019.swo17 wrote:If they can keep the MSRP for standard releases at $40
As for libraries... I guess I would need to see some sort of data on how many DVDs they still sell, and what the impact would be if they got rid of those SKUs. My guess: Most libraries would keep buying the Blu-ray copies and the world would keep spinning.
Which is why I might be way off base talking about UHD - it's possible they've just decided that Criterion Channel is the better future proofing measure and they're just going to wait and see on the future of physical media.Noiradelic wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:31 amFor many, DVD was the trendy way to consume movies in the 2000s, till streaming overtook it -- obviously BD has never had that cultural impact.
But so long as they're committed to physical media, why not keep up with advancements in it?
- TwoTecs
- Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:26 pm
Re: Criterion and UHD
Odd to hear how the LA Library only buys DVDs since the Winnipeg library has a good collection of Criterion blus. Not comprehensive by any means but they do act on requests. They also purchase new films on BD and from the number of holds on them, they seem to be quite popular.
- mfunk9786
- Under Chris' Protection
- Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:43 pm
- Location: Philadelphia, PA
Re: Criterion and UHD
You guys have a much healthier relationship with taxes and public services than we do down here
- movielocke
- Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:44 am
Re: Criterion and UHD
The LA city library system is serving a population of 4-11 million (there’s only four million people in la city, but anyone can use their library and get a card, like me I’m not in the city of la), and in addition to the LA city library system there is also the LA county library (la county library is also dvd only, LA county is population 11 million) and I also have a library system in my local suburb (which carries Blu-rays of stuff with significant teen appeal (Harry Potter’s, anime, comic book movies) But is otherwise vast majority dvd.TwoTecs wrote:Odd to hear how the LA Library only buys DVDs since the Winnipeg library has a good collection of Criterion blus. Not comprehensive by any means but they do act on requests. They also purchase new films on BD and from the number of holds on them, they seem to be quite popular.
So these are huge systems serving massive numbers of people, and the best way to serve their needs is to provide the most universal format on the market, not the best format, that the universal format is ALSO the most cost effective format is a significant bonus.
And while most democrat presidential candidates would be surprised that a public service like the library is universal and rich people can use it too (since we know that the rational moderate position is that we should never provide any universal program if rich people are also allowed to participate!), many of a libraries regular users don’t have disposable income to spend on permanent purchase for their media consumption habits, and many people who do have such disposable income, tend not to patronize a library these days—these conditions create a feedback loop reinforcing the further need to stay dvd only, because the people who might want blu aren’t coming to the library and they don’t stock blu so the people who want it don’t come.
And like any large library program they have to engage in regular weeding, so five years from now all the copies of the inland sea that haven’t been checked out once in the last three years will be weeded and put on sale, (except for probably one copy in the main branch).
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- Joined: Fri May 11, 2018 1:52 pm
Re: Criterion and UHD
Boutique Label UHD Watch
Vinegar Syndrome just had a Black Friday update and announced that the DVD/Blu-Ray edition of Tammy and the T-Rex was selling “considerably faster” than the Blu-Ray/4K UHD edition. So much so that they are transferring slipcases from the UHD edition to the DVD/Blu Ray edition to fulfill orders. It will be interesting to see if they continue to test the UHD market in 2020.
Vinegar Syndrome just had a Black Friday update and announced that the DVD/Blu-Ray edition of Tammy and the T-Rex was selling “considerably faster” than the Blu-Ray/4K UHD edition. So much so that they are transferring slipcases from the UHD edition to the DVD/Blu Ray edition to fulfill orders. It will be interesting to see if they continue to test the UHD market in 2020.
- dwk
- Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2010 6:10 pm
Re: Criterion and UHD
According to Vinegar Syndrome's schedule, they are going to release 1 UHD in May 2020, 1 UHD in October 2020 and 2 UHDs in November 2020. They can obviously end up scrapping those, but that is what they have planned.
- tenia
- Ask Me About My Bassoon
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:13 am
Re: Criterion and UHD
They also just stated their Tammy and the T-Rex BD is selling much faster than the UHD combo so they're going to take some slipcovers of the UHD combos and allocate them to the BDs instead.
- Luke M
- Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:21 pm
Re: Criterion and UHD
VS's website shows they have 459 in stock of the 4K version but only 40 of the regular blu-ray. I would've thought more people would've went for the 4K but I imagine the adoption just isn't there yet.
- swo17
- Bloodthirsty Butcher
- Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:25 am
- Location: SLC, UT
Re: Criterion and UHD
Doesn't help that the UHD combo is priced 40% higher.
To think that the viability of this format to boutique labels worldwide could be decided by people who think Tammy and the T-Rex is worth owning
To think that the viability of this format to boutique labels worldwide could be decided by people who think Tammy and the T-Rex is worth owning
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- Joined: Wed May 01, 2013 1:27 pm
Re: Criterion and UHD
Not really surprising considering the UHD cost $35 and Is still very much a niche within a niche market.
Although I cant imagine paying $25 let alone $35 for that title so maybe this is a bad example.
Although I cant imagine paying $25 let alone $35 for that title so maybe this is a bad example.
- tenia
- Ask Me About My Bassoon
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:13 am
Re: Criterion and UHD
There are many factors : the $34.99 remains quite steep for a market which remains mostly driven by studios who can offer UHD combos for cheaper prices (closer to $20-25 than $35), there is a noticeably cheaper non-UHD release for all those only interested in the BD (or, even, just the DVD), and, well, it remains Tammy and the T-Rex overall. Even if VS seemed to have been able to sell surprisingly high quantities of their releases considering the movies they're dealing with, I would have been very surprised if such a UHD would have sold quickly its 3000 copies.
The issue now is that since they're changing the slipcovers allocations, the "457 copies left" (at the moment) doesn't seem to represent accurately how many UHD combos they've sold.
EDIT : beaten by everyone about the price.
The issue now is that since they're changing the slipcovers allocations, the "457 copies left" (at the moment) doesn't seem to represent accurately how many UHD combos they've sold.
EDIT : beaten by everyone about the price.
I do hope other boutique labels are not looking at Tammy and the T-Rex sales to decide whether or not THEY should at least give a try. Well, except Arrow, maybe.
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- Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:12 am
Re: Criterion and UHD
Synapse's Suspiria might provide them with a better measure. Any word on how that one is selling?
- EddieLarkin
- Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:25 am
Re: Criterion and UHD
Suspiria has an even higher retail price ($60 vs. Tammy's $50), but we are not comparing like for like. The Tammy UHD is currently available only in its Limited Edition 3D Slipcover form, and only through the VS webstore. Eventually VS will release a standard UHD with no slipcover, available from everywhere. Suspiria on the otherhand is already available in its only planned (non-LE) edition, and is thus already available everywhere. I imagine VS are only going to judge the success of this release on UHD once the standard edition is available.
- tenia
- Ask Me About My Bassoon
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:13 am
Re: Criterion and UHD
Synpase might get burnt with Suspiria though as they've been repeatedly saying over the past years "we don't plan this or that" only to later release those.
I wouldn't be surprised Suspiria gets a non-LE UHD re-release in the near future, or at least that some customers will be waiting for one instead of buying the current LE release (which also doesnt even include the movie on BD despite its price).
In any case, you're right about the probable wait for slightly longer term figures to assess the market.
I wouldn't be surprised Suspiria gets a non-LE UHD re-release in the near future, or at least that some customers will be waiting for one instead of buying the current LE release (which also doesnt even include the movie on BD despite its price).
In any case, you're right about the probable wait for slightly longer term figures to assess the market.
- Luke M
- Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:21 pm
Re: Criterion and UHD
Tammy and the T-Rex now showing 246 left of the 4K and 216 of the blu-ray. Seems they moved about 200 slipcovers?