Criterion and UHD

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flyonthewall2983
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#326 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:45 am

I apologize in advance if this has been asked already, but would this be at all financially feasible, if they just stopped making DVDs of new titles? Or do the DVDs sell more than the Blu-rays?

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Ribs
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#327 Post by Ribs » Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:56 am

I believe we know at this point that BDs do sell better than DVDs for most releases, although it’s not overwhelmingly so. As it seems reasonable that a substantial fraction of those DVD sales are institutional (libraries & universities) that in many cases do not acquire Blu-rays, they’d be immediately cutting off at least those sales as well as the many people who still don’t do the whole BD thing.

I don’t think that will be the deciding factor if and when a decision has to be made, anyway. Would just be cutting off a whole chunk of sales to appeal to a whole different set of people that has basically no overlap.

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tenia
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#328 Post by tenia » Sat Aug 08, 2020 2:16 pm

As I recall, the US institutions' habit with Criterion DVDs is enough to push its market share (for Criterion) up by 30%. What I don't recall are the splits with and without the institutions. I think it's either going from 50 to 80% or from 20 to 50%, but haven't been able to find back the notes I wrote about this (I'm quite sure Becker talked about this during a keynote last year).
In any case, they're making the DVD much harder to drop.

minimalist
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#329 Post by minimalist » Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:25 pm

So here we are a year and a half after this thread began and UHD TV's with HDR are pretty much the norm now. I just upgraded to an 65" LG OLED and I'm contemplating whether it is worth it to upgrade to a UHD Blu-ray player or just hold off and stream for now and happily watch my existing blu rays. I've been a huge Criterion fan since I bought the triple disc version of Brazil on DVD in the late 90's (so early there was no anamorphic widescreen format yet to maximize DVD resolution). I remember that Criterion was a little late to the blu-ray party so maybe they are still trying to figure this out. But maybe their silence on UHD says something about disc media's long term viability. Do they even want to bother upgrading to yet another format that will inevitably be a niche compared with blu-ray sales? (which was already kind of a niche compared with the huge sales numbers of DVDs).

I certainly hope Criterion finds a way to continue to offer films to home viewers in the highest quality possible. But maybe this won;t be happening via discs anymore? I used to say in the early days there was no way can streaming ever catch up with bu ray quality but in 2020 I don't know if that's true anymore. With broadband speeds as ubiquitous as they are now and higher and higher efficiency codecs UHD HDR streams and look and sound pretty fantastic these days. The question is, where does Criterion go from here? Is the future still discs or have we finally rounded the bed into digital distribution? I love the Criterion Channel too but I still want to buy the film I really love.

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Cash Flagg
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#330 Post by Cash Flagg » Sun Dec 13, 2020 11:04 am

Cash Flagg wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 10:57 am
Which leaves Criterion as, unless I’m mistaken, the only major US boutique label left who hasn’t entered the UHD market, other than Severin.
Aaaand now it’s just Criterion.

Pepeandy
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#331 Post by Pepeandy » Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:57 pm

minimalist wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:25 pm
So here we are a year and a half after this thread began and UHD TV's with HDR are pretty much the norm now. I just upgraded to an 65" LG OLED and I'm contemplating whether it is worth it to upgrade to a UHD Blu-ray player or just hold off and stream for now and happily watch my existing blu rays. I've been a huge Criterion fan since I bought the triple disc version of Brazil on DVD in the late 90's (so early there was no anamorphic widescreen format yet to maximize DVD resolution). I remember that Criterion was a little late to the blu-ray party so maybe they are still trying to figure this out. But maybe their silence on UHD says something about disc media's long term viability. Do they even want to bother upgrading to yet another format that will inevitably be a niche compared with blu-ray sales? (which was already kind of a niche compared with the huge sales numbers of DVDs).

I certainly hope Criterion finds a way to continue to offer films to home viewers in the highest quality possible. But maybe this won;t be happening via discs anymore? I used to say in the early days there was no way can streaming ever catch up with bu ray quality but in 2020 I don't know if that's true anymore. With broadband speeds as ubiquitous as they are now and higher and higher efficiency codecs UHD HDR streams and look and sound pretty fantastic these days. The question is, where does Criterion go from here? Is the future still discs or have we finally rounded the bed into digital distribution? I love the Criterion Channel too but I still want to buy the film I really love.
Actually, 4K streaming is still pretty far away from what you get from a 4K UHD Blu-Ray. I was hesitant of going into the format but oh boy, not only it makes films feel like they are born again but the whole collecting aspect of it feels as exciting as it ever did with DVDs and Blu Rays. Getting any release announcements with a format like 4k UHD is simply awesome.

From my experience I was one of those who didn't knot what to expect out of the format, and let me tell you once you go 4K UHD it's hard to not want more and more. I watched The Shinning on 4k after watching it a million times in other formats and that reafirmed to me the power of this technology, it can be vastly more powerful than Blu-Ray, even though Blu Ray is an already amazing format.

For anybody hesitating on trying the technology I very strongly recommend it and as for Critetion 4K UHD, I don't think its a matter of if will they go into it, but rather a matter of when. They are sitting in a gold mine of 4K scanned content and not taking advantage of the 4K UHD wouldn't be just terribly sad but would be a tragedy for many films and collectors.

My prediction is by this year we will see the first 4k UHD title announced by Criterion or at least they will lay out their plans on the format publicly. Sony's PS5 and Xbox Series X will also make the format more popular and sales of the format will undoubtedly go way up leaving room for big Criterion Titles to be considered for 4K UHD release.

minimalist
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#332 Post by minimalist » Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:59 pm

Thanks for the reply Pepeandy.

I truly hope you are right about Criterion releasing UHD Blu-rays but after reading more about the rocky history of the format thusfar I'm not so certain Criterion will bother investing the time and resources required to move to the format. It would be far simpler for them to use the Criterion Channe, digital sales and rentals to monetize those UHD releases more efficiently. Is it the absolute best quality available? No. But does it make their releases available to the most people in the format they want? Yes. Remember, Criterion is still selling DVDs so even they have to go where the market leads.

After I dug around a little more I discovered some sobering facts about UHD Blu-ray as a format. Samsung (the words biggest consumer electronics manufacturer) and Oppo have both exited the UHD Blu ray player market. Thats huge. And Disney may or may not be releasing anymore UHD blu ray discs even though they have tons of UHD content on their streaming service and available for purchase digitally. Those are serious blows for a format not unlike when Warner exited the HD-DVD business and Disney went full in on Blu-ray. Add in the fact that no new UHD Blu-ray players were introduced in 2020 and things don't look so great for the format at this point. A casual look at my Apple TV shows that for every single UHD Blu ray available there are probably 7 or 8 more UHD titles available for purchase or rent on iTunes or streaming on a service like Prime, HBO Max or Netflix. This says to me the studios know where the market is heading in 2021 and its probably not physical discs.

Maybe I'll be proven wrong. Maybe the PS5 and XBox Series X will prop up disc purchases like the PS3 is rumored to have done for blu-ray (although neither of those consoles supports Dolby Vision playback.. so much for them representing the pinnacle for picture quality) And the market for media is a very different place in 2021 than is was in 2006.Over the last 14 years streaming has grown in leaps and bounds and disc sales continue to fall. I also have The Shining (and Full Metal Jacket and 2001: A Space Odyssey) in digital 4K with Dolby Vision and Dolby Atmos and they too look stunning compared to the previous blu-ray releases. I'm not sure the small increase in quality that a physical disc could offer over those 4K streams is going to be as compelling now as the difference between streaming and blu ray was in say 2012 or 2013. The real irony is that most of the 4K streaming content in my iTunes library was the result fo free video and audio upgrades from Apple. Overnight I went from having 220 HD digital copies to having 160 or so 4K HDR digital copies many with the sound upgraded to Atmos. Thats a pretty nice perk actually and one place where streaming has a distinct advantage.

If Criterion fully commits to the UHD Blu-ray format I may buy some just so I can have my favorite films given the full criterion treatment. But until then I will hold off on buying any discs to avoid being stuck with a dead end format. In the meantime I still have eveything in my existing blu-ray collection, the Criterion Channel and a tons of streaming 4K content to keep me happy.

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yoloswegmaster
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#333 Post by yoloswegmaster » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:32 pm

According to an insider named "Geekgab" (who is apparently a reliable source), Criterion will be releasing their first 4K UHD but it will be region-locked at the behest of the licensor.

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Ribs
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#334 Post by Ribs » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:44 pm

He is not a reliable source, and it is literally not something they are allowed to do without penalty.

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mfunk9786
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#335 Post by mfunk9786 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:40 pm

I second Ribs here, the format isn't built for region locking and were it an option, a big studio would dedicate a lot more muscle to getting a big tentpole release region locked than some second or third party boutique label's classic film special edition. Maybe I'm way off base here.

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dwk
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#336 Post by dwk » Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:50 pm

I think the Blu-ray.com forum has found three UHDs that are region locked, and I would assume that all three cases were simply mistakes.

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The Fanciful Norwegian
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#337 Post by The Fanciful Norwegian » Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:26 am

mfunk9786 wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:40 pm
I second Ribs here, the format isn't built for region locking and were it an option, a big studio would dedicate a lot more muscle to getting a big tentpole release region locked than some second or third party boutique label's classic film special edition. Maybe I'm way off base here.
This is kind of moot since, as already covered, a region-locked UHD is out of spec, but on BD it seems to be the opposite—i.e. studios that mandate region-locking from boutique labels will often leave their own releases unlocked. I'm pretty sure the reason is that the studios typically have worldwide ownership of their films (especially the big tentpoles) and don't care if their own release is sold across territories, but they care more if, say, someone in the U.S. buys a third-party release for which the distributor only licensed the UK rights.

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tenia
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#338 Post by tenia » Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:27 am

Ribs wrote:He is not a reliable source, and it is literally not something they are allowed to do without penalty.
What penalty ? As far as we know so far, there are now 3 geo-locked UHDs that are out of specs but have been released nevertheless and about which we're still waiting to know the BDA's stance about this.

If this status quo was to remain, Criterion could do geo-locked UHDs.
dwk wrote:I think the Blu-ray.com forum has found three UHDs that are region locked, and I would assume that all three cases were simply mistakes.
I don't recall which one is the third one, but IIRC, there is at least one that definitely looks like a willing choice.

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willoneill
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#339 Post by willoneill » Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:28 am

For those of us who tend to avoid the snake pit that is blu-ray.com, what are the three region-locked UHDs?

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yoloswegmaster
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#340 Post by yoloswegmaster » Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:49 am

I know that one is 'Weathering With You' from Shout Factory. I believe that the reason for this is because of Toho, though this could just be a rumor.

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dwk
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#341 Post by dwk » Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:09 am

The other two appear to be a release of the Death Wish remake (disc released in Norway) and a Gerard Butler movie called Greenland (disc released in Finland.)

I don't buy that Toho made Shout lock that movie, if that were the case then Toho certainly would have forced the other releases of it to be locked and none of them are.

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tenia
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#342 Post by tenia » Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:12 pm

dwk wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:09 am
I don't buy that Toho made Shout lock that movie, if that were the case then Toho certainly would have forced the other releases of it to be locked and none of them are.
Or Shout are the only ones who caved in while others managed to negociate not to produce geo-locked discs ? (that or the movie was more difficult to negociate)

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dwk
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#343 Post by dwk » Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:21 pm

Well, given Shout's long history of screw ups, why would anyone assume it is anything but a screw up.

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yoloswegmaster
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#344 Post by yoloswegmaster » Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:57 am

I just got confirmation for a future Criterion 4K UHD release from a studio representative. I don't know if they want the title to be outed and I'm certain that Criterion won't be pleased if I said it outright, so all I will say is that this title is an American film made within the past 30 years.

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dwk
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#345 Post by dwk » Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:23 am

Can you confirm if it is something they've already released on Blu-ray or DVD?

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therewillbeblus
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#346 Post by therewillbeblus » Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:28 am

Or, more selfishly, if they’re going to be releasing in each format separately or charge the higher price to get a normal blu?

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yoloswegmaster
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#347 Post by yoloswegmaster » Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:35 am

dwk wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:23 am
Can you confirm if it is something they've already released on Blu-ray or DVD?
That’s a good question.

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yoloswegmaster
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#348 Post by yoloswegmaster » Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:37 am

therewillbeblus wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:28 am
Or, more selfishly, if they’re going to be releasing in each format separately or charge the higher price to get a normal blu?
I honestly have no clue if it is going to be dual-format or how much they will be charging. Sorry!

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Luke M
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#349 Post by Luke M » Mon Jul 12, 2021 11:35 am

I'm guessing Mulholland Drive on account of the Studio Canal 4K being released.

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yoloswegmaster
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Re: Criterion and UHD

#350 Post by yoloswegmaster » Mon Jul 12, 2021 11:59 am

I can neither confirm nor deny anything, but keep on guessing away! On a side note, I can PM the proof to a mod just to prove that I'm not trying to mess around and start something (provided that they don't go around showing others the proof).

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