29 / BD 228 Kwaidan

Discuss releases by Eureka and Masters of Cinema and the films on them.
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ChrisW
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#76 Post by ChrisW » Mon May 15, 2006 2:09 am

Gregory wrote:The DVDBeaver comparison updated to include the R4 release seems to confirm the correctness of the Masters of Cinema edition.
DVD Beaver doesn't mention that the R4 also includes the original Teaser Trailer and Production Trailer for the film (which includes some behind scenes footage).

I think it's a bit misplaced to use the term "correct" to subjectively express a preference towards a given transfer. "Correct" should refer to its faithfulness to the original print.

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Gregory
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#77 Post by Gregory » Mon May 15, 2006 3:33 am

I was referring to faithfulness to the original, not my own preference. The similar blue levels on the AV Channel and MoC releases adds evidence to the explanation that the appearance of the Criterion release is an anomaly and that they substantially manipulated the colors somewhere in their process, as they are known to have done with other releases. Schreck of course mentioned some of the reasons why the difference wouldn't have come up in the telecine process.
The R4 and R2 apparently have different levels of red, interestingly. Anyway, I still didn't want to pretend to be absolutely certain what's correct, which is why I said "seems to confirm..."

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#78 Post by HerrSchreck » Mon May 15, 2006 3:44 am

Gregory wrote:I was referring to faithfulness to the original, not my own preference. ..."
I take it you mean original negative i e What The Camera Recorded when the actors were in front of it (rather than original release, which may have been adjusted deliberately by Kobayashi)? You understand what I've been trying to get at here, right?-- what Nick & I & Gordy have been trying to plumb here viz color adjusted interpositives vintage to original release which may not look anything like preservation original materials, pre-color-adjustment, that may be the source for these new DVDs?

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#79 Post by Bleddyn Williams » Mon May 15, 2006 11:30 am

Gregory wrote:I was referring to faithfulness to the original, not my own preference. The similar blue levels on the AV Channel and MoC releases adds evidence to the explanation that the appearance of the Criterion release is an anomaly and that they substantially manipulated the colors somewhere in their process, as they are known to have done with other releases.
Not a challenge, but a question; what releases are you referring to, Gregory? And how did you ascertain that the colors had been manipulated?

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Michael Kerpan
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#80 Post by Michael Kerpan » Mon May 15, 2006 12:15 pm

For a more recent example -- the US DVD of Kitano's Zatoichi is radically different from the Japanese one (and other Asian ones) -- but the US general release print looks just like the US DVD -- while the original Japanese prints (and original subtitled festival prints) look like the Japanese DVD.

And then there is the issue of tinting in silent films -- something that would not be reflected on any print made from an original negative.

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Gregory
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#81 Post by Gregory » Mon May 15, 2006 2:37 pm

Herr Schreck wrote:I take it you mean original negative i e What The Camera Recorded when the actors were in front of it (rather than original release, which may have been adjusted deliberately by Kobayashi)? You understand what I've been trying to get at here, right?-- what Nick & I & Gordy have been trying to plumb here viz color adjusted interpositives vintage to original release which may not look anything like preservation original materials, pre-color-adjustment, that may be the source for these new DVDs?
I meant true to the original release as Kobayashi intended it. And yes I have considered that he created a color-adjusted interpositive, as you've speculated. But is there any real evidence of this? It may be suggested by the fact that while the R2 and R4 contain the full cut, the Criterion is the "international version." But again, I think it's important to consider how often known anomalies have surfaced with Criterion's releases and why this is the case. I'm not saying they necessarily did it on purpose. As Nick said, it's possibly a result of difference in stock for export prints. This kind of thing may also explain Michael Kerpan's example of Zatoichi. So then which is correct? Presumably not the color scheme of the export which was determined by accidental factors.
Bleddyn Williams wrote:Not a challenge, but a question; what releases are you referring to, Gregory? And how did you ascertain that the colors had been manipulated?
I'm not sure I follow you since those questions are about everything that's been discussed here. Specs for the R2 and R4 releases I'm talking about are on pages two and three of this thread, respectively. And again I'll state that I'm not claiming to be certain about the manipulation. I've been partly trying to conclude what can be concluded from screencaps, about which I agree with what you said earlier: they're merely useful, not gospel, because to some extent the appearance depends on equipment.
Last edited by Gregory on Mon May 15, 2006 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#82 Post by Michael Kerpan » Mon May 15, 2006 2:44 pm

While the director, cinematographer and art director are all deceased, some of the cast is still around: Rentaro Mikumi, Tatsuya Nakadai, Tetsro Tambo and Keiko Kishi (and probably more). Maybe they would remember what this looked like when new. And maybe Toho has some vintage posters hidden away in its archives.

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#83 Post by Bleddyn Williams » Mon May 15, 2006 3:25 pm

Gregory wrote:I'm not sure I follow you since those questions are about everything that's been discussed here. Specs for the R2 and R4 releases I'm talking about are on pages two and three of this thread, respectively. And again I'll state that I'm not claiming to be certain about the manipulation. I've been partly trying to conclude what can be concluded from screencaps, about which I agree with what you said earlier: they're merely useful, not gospel, because to some extent the appearance depends on equipment.
Actually, Gregory, you stated that "[Criterion] substantially manipulated the colors somewhere in their process, as they are known to have done with other releases."

The intent of my question was simply asking which Criterion titles had been manipulated. I wasn't referring to Kwaidan. Sorry for the confusion.

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Gregory
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#84 Post by Gregory » Mon May 15, 2006 4:05 pm

You've taken part of my sentence badly out of context. I said the comparison adds evidence to the explanation that (not the fact that) the color differences on the Kwaidan releses resulted from Criterion's process. The key is that I'm allowing for other explanations. The other Criterion releases I'm thinking of with manipulated colors include (off the top of my head) Good Morning, Floating Weeds, In the Mood For Love, Time Bandits, Silence of the Lambs, Juliet of the Spirits. Usually they lean on the side of having too much red, making skin tones look too sunburnt. Contrast boosting may be to blame for this in some cases.

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otis
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#85 Post by otis » Mon May 15, 2006 5:26 pm

davidhare wrote:As for new positives and DVDs, am I alone in preferring the original DVD image of Warner Technicolor movies like Cat on a Hot Tin Roof to the new versions, with their more rounded out orange-y "friendly to flesh tone" color palette?
I'd tend to agree. Just look at Paul Newman's eyes (and his PJs). Weren't they supposed to be blue?

Old & new.
If anyone is the least bit interested I am very happy to post caps of the dailies of the "Mr Monotony" sequence from the Easter Parade disc which shows all the hallmarks of IB footage transcribed to DVD, with the attractive but less remarkable "Get Happy"number from the new Summer Stock disc which is certainly an Eastman pos.
Colour me interested.

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#86 Post by Bleddyn Williams » Tue May 16, 2006 10:45 am

Gregory wrote:You've taken part of my sentence badly out of context. I said the comparison adds evidence to the explanation that (not the fact that) the color differences on the Kwaidan releses resulted from Criterion's process. The key is that I'm allowing for other explanations.
The other Criterion releases I'm thinking of with manipulated colors include (off the top of my head) Good Morning, Floating Weeds, In the Mood For Love, Time Bandits, Silence of the Lambs, Juliet of the Spirits. Usually they lean on the side of having too much red, making skin tones look too sunburnt. Contrast boosting may be to blame for this in some cases.
No need to be so defensive, mate. I asked a simple question wondering what other Criterion titles were suspected of manipulated colors - no more.

Thanks for answering my question. :)

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HerrSchreck
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#87 Post by HerrSchreck » Tue May 16, 2006 12:14 pm

Gregory wrote: I meant true to the original release as Kobayashi intended it. And yes I have considered that he created a color-adjusted interpositive, as you've speculated. But is there any real evidence of this? It may be suggested by the fact that while the R2 and R4 contain the full cut, the Criterion is the "international version." But again, I think it's important to consider how often known anomalies have surfaced with Criterion's releases and why this is the case. I'm not saying they necessarily did it on purpose. As Nick said, it's possibly a result of difference in stock for export prints. This kind of thing may also explain Michael Kerpan's example of Zatoichi. So then which is correct? Presumably not the color scheme of the export which was determined by accidental factors.
Well, it seems we're spinning our wheels here where our posts just seem to be duplicating themselves over & over. I for the record have no firm decision in either direction, I'm just trying to keep minds opened to the possibility that an adjusted interpos was created, which would explain certain things.

The laws of telecine dictate that to effect the kinds of blues in certain CC scenes, the colorist would have had to have been dropping acid, for, for an undetermined reason, he would have had to have digitally selected zones for independant digital blueing (independant to other areas of the image like fleshtones which would have been radically effected if blanket blue settings i e analog had been so heavily amped) and slammed the levels thru the roof, then, once those scenes were over, say "Ok I'm done changing the color of the studio back wall," deselect those areas and return to a less radical setting.

As for "evidence" of criterion manipulating colors because of a few releases, I'd say this happens to every DVD company all of which have off releases. This makes them "a DVD company", rather than dubious. As far as track record is concerned I would say that this particular company should give you far more of a feeling of security that checks and balances exist to a degree that far exceed most top-name atomic budget studios. I'd go so far as to say they have the best track record of all. This to me, percentagewise is what the 'evidence' informs me. Less than one "off" release a year (percentagewise, it must come to .66%/year going by agreed-upon color-controversies) is a stellar track record givien how studios fuck their own films up! Their telecine operators must answer to a supervisor who must answer to a whole Image Rest Team who must answer to a QC team who must answer to the whole crew who all screen the prints upon arrival, many of whom have seen the films upon first release.

Truth is none of us know anything except these two newest dvd versions are obviously from the same element, and I daresay if they had the CC they'd have produced a dvd apporximately the same (making allocations for technological advances since CC's disc). This element we can also safely surmise is probably reflecting best what was in front of the cameras during production: we do know however that the CC version was the "circulated" version, the one Kobayashi wanted Hollywood & Western European audiences to see. We do know that the blues in the CC version cannot possibly be "blanket" settings during the telecine process, otherwise the natural blues in the Cannes screen and elsewhere would have bled & radiated insanely, and blue-affected hues like purples & greens & fleshtone-shading, would have gone martian.

On the other hand, we have absolutely no idea at this point what the directors intentions were. None. Simply because we have a faithful reproduction of what was on the preservation for the less-used "long version", which in turn is an repro of "realism" viz what was in front of the camera during filming, in no way "supports" the idea that this is what Kobayashi's intentions were for the look of the film. Post-camera-negative color manipulations, particularly during the Technicolor age, were simply part and parcel of the filmmaking process, owing to the seperate strips, the state of the film stock responsiveness & grain, and the resulting artificiality of the technicolor medium. MoC absolutely deserve major kudos for such a fabulous edition, which obviously is a must-own. As to whether or not this edition duplicates what was in the theaters, I have no idea. I just turned 39 so I wasn't alive to go see it, and even if my dad had gone to see it, and I could have athletically beat & fought & elbowed & swam my way to the head of the spermatozoa (I was head & tails above the resta these lazy buncha bums laying around jolting jello shots of endorphine while I was latching onta shit with my tail doing pullups) to peek thru my dad's testicular pores at the screen, his dry goods woulda blocked my view leaving me in the dark just as dark now.

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#88 Post by peerpee » Tue May 16, 2006 12:21 pm

HerrSchreck wrote:we do know however that the CC version was the "circulated" version, the one Kobayashi wanted Hollywood & Western European audiences to see.
I was under the impression that it was foreign distributors in the West who complained that a three-hour film wouldn't play very well, thus the creation of a 22-minute shorter 'Export' version with cuts all over the place to quicken the pace. Not exactly sure this was what Kobayashi really wanted the West to see.

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#89 Post by Gordon » Tue May 16, 2006 12:32 pm

That new Cat on a Hot Tin Roof transfer looks horrendous. What the fuck were Warner thinking? Jacked-up brightness and contrast; 'friendlier' colour (it looks like a faded-to-salmon early-days Eastman print) and it's cropped a fair bit on all four sides. Awful. I'm glad I'm not a fan of the film, but a bummer for those who are. My sympathies.

The new transfer also looks vertically stretched. Newman looks like...? :shock:

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#90 Post by HerrSchreck » Tue May 16, 2006 12:37 pm

I certainly see what you're saying Nick. But what I meant was this was what he wanted them to "see", on a visual plane, the look of the film. Certainly this would be next-best to his ideal as far as the narrative is concerned. I just meant on the more superficial level where this is the print he is consciously sending, albeit structurally compromised, out to those critical--financially & artistically-- cinematic markets of the west, and so therefore would be paying attention to the fact that this is The Version that is going to be seen by Hollywood, NY, London etc. A very very important print, of course, despite it's compromise (like most all directors who have no final cut the cutting is commonplace & unexceptional as it happens to all, particularly of films of this size; this is, despite that irritation, for all intents & purposes his Major Release Print,).

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#91 Post by otis » Wed May 17, 2006 12:52 am

Thanks for the caps, David (or should that be Alexei?). The first three look incredible. That does it: you've convinced me to buy the Classic Musicals box. I've been prevaricating on this ever since it came out - just couldn't bring myself to buy a Tommy Steele pic, I guess. But what the hell, I can always chuck it and keep the other four. Incidentally, whatever happened to Schreck's idea of a screencap sticky? Has anyone checked with the mods/gods?

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#92 Post by zedz » Wed May 17, 2006 5:44 pm

davidhare wrote:Alexei here yer Imperial Maj - think twice about the classic Musicals box. Those gorgeous IB caps are from the Easter Parade single disc extras (and my opinion of the movie is not high.Ann Miller notwithstanding.) As for the box, two titles, Till the Clouds Roll By and Three Little Words are complete dogs.
I think they're in the other box. Easter Parade comes with The Band Wagon - a must-have for anyone with any interest in film - and, in declining order of worth: Bells are Ringing, Brigadoon and Finian's Rainbow. I'd say only the last is a complete dog, though I'm no great fan of Brigadoon.

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#93 Post by manicsounds » Tue May 30, 2006 10:39 pm

What's with the running time on this release? dvdbeaver says its fully 183 minutes, but since Moc releases are PAL, shouldnt there be speedup?

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nick
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#94 Post by nick » Wed May 31, 2006 9:06 am

Actually if you look close at the specs on dvdbeaver, I believe it is encoded for NTSC. MOC have done this on a few occasions when the master they receive is NTSC. It's a better option that converting to PAL and suffering the shortcomings of that process.

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#95 Post by daniel p » Sun Jun 04, 2006 11:54 pm

This arrived today, and boy the book is impressive! Very thick, and the wider spine looks great too. Can't wait to delve into this.

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#96 Post by Scharphedin2 » Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:12 pm

I just logged on here to write more or less the same thing. This is an extraordinarily fine looking DVD. The book alone is worth the purchase!

I noticed in the booklet that apparently the film premiered at Cannes back in 1964 with only three of the four stories -- "The Woman of the Snow" having been excised. Was this simply for reasons of duration? While it is difficult to say that one story is a better segment of the film than any other, I would certainly say that "The Woman of the Snow" story stands out very strongly in memory. I am really surprised that this story would have been left out originally.

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#97 Post by manicsounds » Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:19 am

The soundtrack has many pops and cracks on the MOC release, a lot more than the Criterion release. Criterion's was very smooth in sound.

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#98 Post by HerrSchreck » Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:28 am

Scharphedin2 wrote:I noticed in the booklet that apparently the film premiered at Cannes back in 1964 with only three of the four stories -- "The Woman of the Snow" having been excised. Was this simply for reasons of duration? While it is difficult to say that one story is a better segment of the film than any other, I would certainly say that "The Woman of the Snow" story stands out very strongly in memory. I am really surprised that this story would have been left out originally.
That is amazing. I would go so far as to say that the film unquestionably hinges on HOICHI & WOMAN/SNOW. Not to mention that the sequence stars Tatsuya Nakadai, probably the films biggest star aside from Shimura's little cameo in HOICHI. The other two scenes are virtual bookends to these 2 tours de force. Beautiful, stunning, mindblowing bookends... BLACK HAIR probably more so than CUP TEA... but bookends nontheless.

I think you may be misinterpreting something. The CC is the international print, and all four sequences are intact. The booklet may have said (I havent grabbed the MoC yet tho I of course will) that SNOW WOMAN was edited for release... meaning not edited out of the whole picture, but edited, meaning parts were snipped out. For instance I know there's lovemaking scenes between Nakadai and the human incarnation of the Woman that didn't appear in the Cannes/Int'l cut.

Reminds me a little bit of DAS WACHSFIGURENKABINETT, another omnibus-style film that was originally slated to have four horror tales but for alleged reasons of budget was sliced down to three, the Rinaldo Rinaldini segment being excised during production, but with the wax figure in evidence on the set. The bizarre thing is that the Douris Group claims to have a print with the Rinaldini sequence in there.

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#99 Post by Scharphedin2 » Mon Jun 26, 2006 2:10 pm

HerrSchreck wrote:That is amazing. I would go so far as to say that the film unquestionably hinges on HOICHI & WOMAN/SNOW. Not to mention that the sequence stars Tatsuya Nakadai, probably the films biggest star...
I completely agree with you! However, this is the exact quote (following a list of the members of the jury of the Cannes festival anno 1965): "Only three of the four episodes appeared in the version of the film screened at the festival; The Woman of the Snow was excised." (MoC's italics).

I wonder what the sequence of the stories would then have been? 'Black Hair'/'Hoichi'/'Cup of Tea'?

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#100 Post by peerpee » Mon Jun 26, 2006 2:54 pm

Scharphedin2 wrote:I completely agree with you! However, this is the exact quote (following a list of the members of the jury of the Cannes festival anno 1965): "Only three of the four episodes appeared in the version of the film screened at the festival; The Woman of the Snow was excised." (MoC's italics).
This information was taken from the Cannes Festival report in Cahiers at the time.

Craig writes: "When it got a French release, the episode was put back in (as "the international version'). So when it came out in French theatres later in the year, and came time to review it, they only discussed 'Woman of the Snow' -- because it was the episode the earlier festival-report review wasn't able to cover, and also because neither writer liked the film, so they felt there was no use devoting much space to it again. I guess it would be more accurate to say that they don't like it, but it's not quite a "pan" -- they're both just kind of indifferent to it. And they both remark upon its "academicism," which isn't meant complimentarily.

(one of those "boy did they get it wrong" moments in CdC history -- but not as big as when they panned 'The Searchers')"

Here are the pieces. The first one is by Jean-André Fieschi, and the second one is by Michel Mardore.

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