Carlotta Releases

[ellipsis7]

For anyone currently in Paris, IL DESERTO ROSSO/LE DESERT ROUGE screens theatrically on Monday as part of the Dolce Vita sur Seine festival, presumably in the new restoration... An opportunity to contrast & compare on the big & the small screen?...

Il Deserto rosso

de Michelangelo Antonioni
avec Monica Vitti et Richard Harris

Lundi 11 juillet 20h30
Christine Cinéma Club
4 rue Christine, 75006 Paris
01 43 25 85 78

[jegharfangetmigenmyg]

I found the grading of this new restoration quite extreme with colors popping extremely in many instances, and I mentioned the red sail on the ship which have now become pink. So just to compare the three HD masters that are now available I took screenshots of this ship where one can also compare the color(s) of the ocean. And the differences are quite striking. I would say that the Criterion has the dullest, most neutral look, and the BFI maybe the most natural look, probably? But BFI also has a kind of greenish tinge throughout the rest of the movie, and it is fairly edge enhanced. I don't see as much EE on the Criterion, but, as mentioned, it has the dullest look of them all which almost certainly doesn't look like Antonioni intended it.

I don't remember the grading of any of these two masters shifting significantly from scene to scene like the Carlotta, either. On the other hand, the Carlotta's azure ocean might suit the scene's settings better, but from the cutting it looks like those shots were filmed somewhere else, and once again, I believe that sail should be red, not pink. Maybe ellipsis7 can take a screenshot from the Japanese blu-ray so we can see if it's also pink on that one?

Anyway, judge for yourselves. I might upload another comparison later:

[therewillbeblus]

This feels like a film similar to Le Cercle Rouge where it may be worth getting all the versions because the color palette can change the tonal experience of the film

[jegharfangetmigenmyg]

This feels like a film similar to Le Cercle Rouge where it may be worth getting all the versions because the color palette can change the tonal experience of the film

Yeah, and it's especially frustrating because the colors of this film are so striking either way it's graded. It's feels like a whole new movie sampling this restoration, but it really is all over the place, and I'm sure Antonioni aimed for a more consistent look and overall feeling in mind. It really feels like a missed opportunity, and while doing this comparison I also changed my mind and agree with Tenia that the look of this version is too soft, bordering on slightly out of focus. Of course, especially the BFI and maybe also the Criterion to a lesser extent are edge enhanced, but this is too much in the other direction. Of note it should also be added that the BFI was released in 2010 and the Criterion in 2012, so ten years of waiting and now this...

[therewillbeblus]

I’ve only ever seen the film on Criterion’s DVD and blu-ray releases, but I know many here prefer the BFI. I’ve come around to seeing these different palettes as opportunities for subjective recontextualizations. Of course it would be cool to get exactly what Antonioni intended but if I’m going to double dip, I’d like it to be for reasons beyond supplements-only. I’m really looking forward to a future viewing of Le Cercle Rouge’s BFI blu (containing the cool tones I’ve always been fond of) side by side with the new Criterion UHD, as I think it’ll be a strikingly different experience. It’s the rare case where I don’t want to dump a release because they’re so different, and I want the option to compare and contrast my varying responses to them. Maybe one day we’ll get a 4K Red Desert that’s entirely different too, and a chance to embark on a similar project- I probably won’t buy four/five versions of this though!

[ellipsis7]

Unfortunately I don't have the facility to take a frame grab of the Japanese BR, but I still believe that it is superior to these three... I watched the most recent two through today, noting both the sound and the vision... Also for comparison I reckon the 'fable' within the film, while very important obviously, is not as significant as the industrial scenes, while absolutely keeping an eye on the rendering of the unique pink beach and the distinctive hue of the sea... But, as you say, it is reds, yellows, greens & blues that judgment has to be based upon... IMHO dealing with the reds alone they are rendered more distinctively on the Japanese BR, which is altogether much more visceral & defined, sound & vision wise...

So far I have viewed in my calculation seven versions of DESERTO ROSSO on DVD & BR... A neverending story, I guess...

Image US DVD
Carlotta Fra v.1 DVD
Madman Aus DVD
Criterion US BR
BFI UK BR
Japanese BR
Carlotta Fra v.2 BR

[mhofmann]

The Deserto Rosso 4k restoration is more disappointing : the grain is mostly frozen, moving like force field around people or moving objects, it's also clearly not as sharp as I'd expected (I'll have to check what was scanned, but if it was the OCN, then I can only guess the scanner was out of focus) and the grading seemed all over the place (it looks like the movie is full of color inconsistencies) and old-looking.

I completely agree. Just looked at the disc and potential sharpness and grading anomalies aside, the egregious grain management with frozen grain that's moving with and around objects is highly disappointing.

[therewillbeblus]

So far I have viewed in my calculation seven versions of DESERTO ROSSO on DVD & BR... A neverending story, I guess...

Image US DVD
Carlotta Fra v.1 DVD
Madman Aus DVD
Criterion US BR
BFI UK BR
Japanese BR
Carlotta Fra v.2 BR

So for a layman who has only seen the film under one condition, can you (and/or others) rank the available blu ray releases in order of preference? I’m curious to see if there’s a clear motivator to jump on the Japanese and/or BFI…

[ellipsis7]

Well, that's simple...

If you speak Italian & are a purist, go for the Japanese BR as arguably the best, but if you want a solid package with a decent transfer & English subtitles don't look further than the BFI...

[jegharfangetmigenmyg]

Remember that the BFI is hampered by edge enhancement and that it has a greenish tinge throughout. But I prefer it to Criterion too, because it on the other hand looks too neutral and dullish.

I might buy the Japanese blu-ray because I've really wanted to re-watch this one for a long time, but I've been waiting for a proper restoration because those ten year old blu-rays just doesn't do it for me.

ellipsis7: Are you certain that the soundtrack on the Japanese BD is different from the Carlotta? Shouldn't it be the same when they come from the same restoration? The one on the Charlotta is just a simple DTS-HD Master 1.0. Is the Japanese perhaps 2.0?

Re. not being a native Italian speaker, neither am I, but I usually just rip the French subtitles and sync them (first and last sub) with some proper English subs from an earlier release and then play them back on a USB on my Oppo along with the blu. Usually there's not much more an hour's work doing this. The main task is helping your computer with the OCR. But SubtitleEdit does a good job almost by itself.

[rrenault]

Remember that the BFI is hampered by edge enhancement and that it has a greenish tinge throughout. But I prefer it to Criterion too, because it on the other hand looks too neutral and dullish.

I might buy the Japanese blu-ray because I've really wanted to re-watch this one for a long time, but I've been waiting for a proper restoration because those ten year old blu-rays just doesn't do it for me.

ellipsis7: Are you certain that the soundtrack on the Japanese BD is different from the Carlotta? Shouldn't it be the same when they come from the same restoration? The one on the Charlotta is just a simple DTS-HD Master 1.0. Is the Japanese perhaps 2.0?

Re. not being a native Italian speaker, neither am I, but I usually just rip the French subtitles and sync them (first and last sub) with some proper English subs from an earlier release and then play them back on a USB on my Oppo along with the blu. Usually there's not much more an hour's work doing this. The main task is helping your computer with the OCR. But SubtitleEdit does a good job almost by itself.

I'd like an upgrade over my Criterion blu-ray, as well, although it would cost me about 46 USD to order the Japanese BR to France, which is, admittedly, a lot to spend on an in print standalone 1080p disc. Heck, that's a price tag I'd struggle with for a standalone UHD. Hopefully we'll just get a UHD from either BFI or Criterion sooner rather than later.

I'll admit I first "discovered" the film through the Criterion blu-ray over a decade ago, and it quickly became a top 10-20 favorite of mine, so I have a sentimental attachment to the CC BR. It's also the very first blu-ray from any company or label I ever owned.

[tenia]

While I understand TWBB's view on "recontextualisation opportunities", I wish we wouldn't have 3 different gradings letting us wonder which one is the one closer to the movie's original aimed aesthetic, or if actually none of them even are close.

I just want to watch the movie as I should be watching it (discussions about "it's home video and not in theaters anyway" or "it's digital not film stock anyway" and other similar shenanigans aside).

[ellipsis7]

ellipsis7: Are you certain that the soundtrack on the Japanese BD is different from the Carlotta? Shouldn't it be the same when they come from the same restoration? The one on the Carlotta is just a simple DTS-HD Master 1.0. Is the Japanese perhaps 2.0?

I've had a chance to check this out...

As you say the soundtrack on the Carlotta BR is a simple DTS-HD Master Audio 1.0ch 48kHz 1.1Mbps...

However the soundtrack on the Japanese BR is a superior totally uncompressed LPCM 2.0ch 48kHz/16bit 1.9Mbps...

Which I think accounts for the quality differential..

Note the sound was restored in 2017 alongside the picture...

Restauro realizzato in 4K a partire dai negativi scena e colonna messi a disposizione da RTI-Mediaset. La correzione del colore è stata supervisionata presso il laboratorio Fotocinema dal direttore della fotografia Luciano Tovoli al fine di restituire al film il cromatismo ed il tono fotografico voluti all'epoca da Michelangelo Antonioni e Carlo di Palma. L'acquisizione ed il restauro del suono sono stati realizzati presso il laboratorio del Centro Sperimentale di Cinematografia-Cineteca Nazionale sotto la supervisione di Federico Savina.

[jegharfangetmigenmyg]

ellipsis7: Are you certain that the soundtrack on the Japanese BD is different from the Carlotta? Shouldn't it be the same when they come from the same restoration? The one on the Carlotta is just a simple DTS-HD Master 1.0. Is the Japanese perhaps 2.0?

I've had a chance to check this out...

As you say the soundtrack on the Carlotta BR is a simple DTS-HD Master Audio 1.0ch 48kHz 1.1Mbps...

However the soundtrack on the Japanese BR is a superior totally uncompressed LPCM 2.0ch 48kHz/16bit 1.9Mbps...

Which I think accounts for the quality differential..

Note the sound was restored in 2017 alongside the picture...

Restauro realizzato in 4K a partire dai negativi scena e colonna messi a disposizione da RTI-Mediaset. La correzione del colore è stata supervisionata presso il laboratorio Fotocinema dal direttore della fotografia Luciano Tovoli al fine di restituire al film il cromatismo ed il tono fotografico voluti all'epoca da Michelangelo Antonioni e Carlo di Palma. L'acquisizione ed il restauro del suono sono stati realizzati presso il laboratorio del Centro Sperimentale di Cinematografia-Cineteca Nazionale sotto la supervisione di Federico Savina.

Thanks for the info, ellipsis! Blu-ray.com states that the Japanese release is a BD-25 while the Carlotta is a BD-50. Is this correct? However, if the Japanese is barebones, it probably doesn't matter much. I'm curious about this -- if it actually has better sound and better grain rendering / compression, I'll order it and sell my Carlotta.

[ellipsis7]

I can see the Carlotta BR is a BD-50 but can see no indication for the Japanese BR - both are AVC encodes... A visual examination of the inner ring on the data side of the disc is inconclusive - there could be one or two sets of codes (BD-25 or BD-50)... The Japanese BR is Region A...

[tenia]

If the mix is the same for both the Japanese and French BDs, the difference between LPCM and DTS HD MA should be negligible. I've seen 1.0 LPCM tracks showing no visible spectral difference between the same track encoded in DD 192 kbps, and that's theoretically a much bigger encode difference.
However, the same source might have been modified specifically for one or the other release, akin to 2 different releases sharing the same picture restoration but one having specifically sharpened or DNRed it. This is more likely to generate an audible difference.

[therewillbeblus]

While I understand TWBB's view on "recontextualisation opportunities", I wish we wouldn't have 3 different gradings letting us wonder which one is the one closer to the movie's original aimed aesthetic, or if actually none of them even are close.

I just want to watch the movie as I should be watching it (discussions about "it's home video and not in theaters anyway" or "it's digital not film stock anyway" and other similar shenanigans aside).

Ultimately I agree with you- this is my default view (not only due to obvious reasons, but OCD symptoms, time and money restrictions, etc.) and I’ve only adopted this new one out of necessity to accept the situation on its terms and reframe it into some positive mold. But it’s absolutely more of a strategy to be less frustrated vs how I really feel deep inside or whatever. If someone said “This Is The Right Version” I’d happily buy it and close the book

[tasa]

As you say the soundtrack on the Carlotta BR is a simple DTS-HD Master Audio 1.0ch 48kHz 1.1Mbps...

However the soundtrack on the Japanese BR is a superior totally uncompressed LPCM 2.0ch 48kHz/16bit 1.9Mbps...

Which I think accounts for the quality differential..

Well the film has a mono soundtrack, so it's almost certain the Japanese audio is dual mono, meaning it's the same track just duplicated for both left and right channels. That would mean for comparison's sake that the real bitrate is half of what you say (~0.95 Mbps). You also left out that the Carlotta audio is 24-bit. In any case, it's possible you perceive the Japanese BD audio as better because it's playing as "stereo" when it's not true stereo. However, as tenia says, there could have been some processing done for either releases, we just can't know without any further analysis on the tracks themselves. But I think in the end there won't be a significant difference. I also personally would base my decision to purchase almost entirely on the picture quality. So screenshot comparisons would be nice...

[andyli]

I posted some caps from the Japanese IVC blu-ray before. Feel free to add matching shots from the Carlotta for comparison.

[jegharfangetmigenmyg]

I posted some caps from the Japanese IVC blu-ray before. Feel free to add matching shots from the Carlotta for comparison.

I did, and I guess this confirms that they are definitely from the same restoration. There is a somewhat blue tinge to the Carlotta, but if anything the Carlotta is less compressed (look especially at the detail level in screenshot 3). Could however be because of JPG compression of the images you uploaded.

IVC


Carlotta



IVC


Carlotta



IVC


Carlotta

[jegharfangetmigenmyg]

I did a couple of additional comparison in uncompressed PNG. Note that the Carlotta is very much cropped in comparison with the others, and note especially how the lady's shirt in screenshot 3 and Richard Harris' shirt in the final screenshot turn from purple in BFI and Criterion to blue on the Carlotta. I'd say that Criterion is probably my favorite after doing these. It is indeed the dullest of the three, but the other's just seem off. The BFI is marred by edge enhancement and it looks too dark and green.

BFI


Criterion


Carlotta



BFI


Criterion


Carlotta



BFI


Criterion


Carlotta



BFI


Criterion


Carlotta



BFI


Criterion


Carlotta



BFI


Criterion


Carlotta

[tenia]

BFI


Criterion


Carlotta

This, to me, is a color-grading nightmare. Like : FFS, what are the movie's colors supposed to look like ? Is this scene supposed to be shifting towards green, magenta-ish or blue ? What color was Harris' coat ?

[MichaelB]

The basic problem is that everyone directly involved is now dead and there’s no rock-solid 100% definitive colour reference. So it really does come down to personal preference.

[jegharfangetmigenmyg]

This, to me, is a color-grading nightmare. Like : FFS, what are the movie's colors supposed to look like ? Is this scene supposed to be shifting towards green, magenta-ish or blue ? What color was Harris' coat ?

I took a couple of additional captures from that same scene, and the jump from light grey coat to dark blue coat is pretty striking. Also took some shots of Vitti in front of a supposedly white wall.

The trouble is, like you said in your original post, that the colors on the Carlotta simply look all over the place. In some scenes they seem spot on, while in other they feel completely off, giving a sense that Tovoli really just had a go at the entire film, taking ten minutes at a time, maybe over a couple of months? But it's really odd that someone didn't stop this during quality -- or common sense -- check.

At least, both the BFI and the Criterion each has their uniform look, but I still feel now that edge enhancement and dark green tint that drowns out details and colors kills the BFI while the Criterion, while looking a bit dull, would be the best "I don't know how the hell it should look"-way of seeing this film as it's so neutral. At least compared to the others.


BFI


Criterion


Carlotta



BFI


Criterion


Carlotta

[jegharfangetmigenmyg]

The basic problem is that everyone directly involved is now dead and there’s no rock-solid 100% definitive colour reference. So it really does come down to personal preference.

Wouldn't it be possible to use a well-preserved 35mm copy for reference, at the very least? There must be a lot of copies of this not very underground film sitting at archives around the world?