381 La haine

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tryavna
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#126 Post by tryavna » Thu Apr 26, 2007 5:40 pm

Tribe wrote:
tryavna wrote:It's also not quite true tat the "movies never made their way over here," either. In fact, during the early days of the Disney Channel (back in the mid-1980s), they imported and showed several of the Asterix movies -- dubbed, of course. The two I remember seeing most frequently were Asterix and Cleopatra and Asterix in Britain, though I remember seeing one or two others as well.
You're probably right. But the point is that neither the series, nor the characters ever acquired any iconic significance in the USA so that any significant portion of the population would recognize them. Even Tintin, which I think is better known around the world than Asterix, is relatively unknown in the States.
"Probably"? I cited a source, for goodness sake. (Here's another, and here's another.) My point is not to demonstrate that Asterix is or is not iconic to the majority of Americans, but there appear to be quite a few Americans who remember the movies. So Asterix is not a completely unknown quantity over here, as a number of posters are suggesting.

I'm not sure what, if anything, this proves. I tend to side with Gregory, though. People who sit down to watch this film may not have much specific knowledge of Asterix (or Le Pen), but they likely wouldn't be nonplussed if they encountered those names. I think that some of the cultural and historical references in Kurosawa's Kagemusha are far more obscure for American audiences.

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Tribe
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#127 Post by Tribe » Thu Apr 26, 2007 5:57 pm

tryavna wrote:"Probably"? I cited a source, for goodness sake. (Here's another, and here's another.) My point is not to demonstrate that Asterix is or is not iconic to the majority of Americans, but there appear to be quite a few Americans who remember the movies. So Asterix is not a completely unknown quantity over here, as a number of posters are suggesting.
Poor choice of words on my part. OK, it's not a "complete unknown," just like nothing is a "complete unknown" when it comes to something like that. My point is that the majority of folks in the USA have no idea what Asterix is. If one looks hard enough one might find a copy of it on a library shelf or a used bookstore. It doesn't make it well known.

That doesn't mean that it should've been subtitled out.
tryavna wrote:People who sit down to watch this film may not have much specific knowledge of Asterix (or Le Pen), but they likely wouldn't be nonplussed if they encountered those names. I think that some of the cultural and historical references in Kurosawa's Kagemusha are far more obscure for American audiences.
I agree with you 100% on that. See my earlier post regarding the Chanoc reference in Y tu mama tambien.

Tribe

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Michael Kerpan
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#128 Post by Michael Kerpan » Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:03 pm

Even ADV's version of the anime series "Azumanga Daioh" (about a group of girls going through high school) left in (almost all) the real cultural references -- and then provided notes in a booklet that explained the significance of these references. Surely it's not too much too expect Criterion to do at least as well as an anime distributor.

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Kinsayder
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#129 Post by Kinsayder » Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:32 pm

It may also be worth pointing out that the language in La Haine is often intentionally unfamiliar, and will seem so even to many French viewers. Not the Asterix and Le Pen references, of course, but some of the gang-speak that the principal characters use. Ginette Vincendeau discusses this in her essay on the film in the book "French Film: texts and contexts":
Their language is verlan, an old form of backslang (which inverts syllables) revived in the 1970s. Some verlan words have entered the national vocabulary, such as feuj (juif, Jew), keuf (flic, cop), meuf (femme), and of course beur [arab]: in fact beur is so common that a further form of verlan has transformed it into rebeu. But the degree to which the boys use verlan designates their language as banlieue gang-speak. The recurrent sexually aggressive insults of nique ta mère (literally "fuck your mother") and bâtard (bastard) are relatively new additions to French slang, which speak of both Mediterranean and American influences.

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Michael Kerpan
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#130 Post by Michael Kerpan » Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:41 pm

Kinsayder -- I wonder if Criterion bothers to acknowledge the distinctive way language is used in this film in its background materials?
Last edited by Michael Kerpan on Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Doctor Sunshine
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#131 Post by Doctor Sunshine » Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:39 pm

Michael Kerpan wrote:Surely it's not too much too expect Criterion to do at least as well as an anime distributor.
Judging by the anime fansubs I've seen, anime distributors are catering to people who prefer their dictionary definitions in the actual subtitles. Anal retentiveness is not a quality I want to see Criterion embrace. I'm not sure it would be worth them going out of their way to explain two short blurbs that can easily be looked up on one's own. For example, a few minutes ago I found out that Asterix is a viking, I had been envisioning little grey dog previously. If Le Pen was going to be mentioned, the commentary track would have been the place to do it but Kassovitz said he was trying to avoid discussing politics too much.
Michael Kerpan wrote:Kinsayder -- I wonder if Criterion bothers to acknowledge the distinctive way language is used in this film in its backgground materials?
Kassovitz discusses it on the commentary track, not in great detail but he covers all the points Kinsayder quoted.

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#132 Post by mikeohhh » Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:06 pm

Has The Wire ever been released in France? What are the French subtitles like?

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#133 Post by soma » Fri Apr 27, 2007 3:47 am

Gregory wrote: Maybe you didn't see my post on the previous page, but when there are conflicting reports in the thread, it's often not reliable to just take one person's word as a given. Again, I've noticed multiple Asterix books in the children's section of a lot of public libraries. I'm not sure if juvenile readers would be considered "comics connoisseurs," but if these books didn't get checked out, in most cases they would be withdrawn.
I simply don't think the posts above are accurate that say that there is nothing in print in the US or that publishers' attempts to make it catch on in the 1980s and 90s failed. Checking Amazon.com right now I see that recently published books are available for every Asterix title I'm familiar with, and then some. Every single one of the ones I scanned through had been reviewed by multiple people. Also, there are between 50 and 75 used copies for sale of each title from Amazon sellers. There normally are not that many used copies around of books that are really obscure. If there is a glut of books that didn't sell, the price on Amazon is usually very low, whereas most of these used Asterix books are priced at about half of cover price (plus shipping).
I'm not arguing that Asterix is as well known here as in Europe, or anything like that. The point of this discussion, as far as I see it, is whether or not Asterix is so obscure in the US that the subtitler for La Haine was justified in substituting Snoopy. I've already stated my position, and have suggested that people who would sit down and watch a film like La Haine are generally part of a more cultured minority who either would already be familiar with these references or wouldn't mind having to look them up if they were interested enough to do so. I know a lot of people who probably would not be at all familiar with Asterix or Le Pen, but many of these same people would not be interested in watching La Haine, or even any film with subtitles. ("If I'm watching a movie, I want to just watch it, not sit there reading the whole time" is something I've heard from numerous people.)

Completely agree and your point is entirely valid. As suspected, Asterix is 'somewhat' known in the States then, even if in the minority. Although as you say and as I suggested in my post also, this really is irrelevant when looking at the suggested demographic that will buy or watch La Haine - as even small unknown references will be understood in overall context or looked up / researched afterwards.

The point someone made about Japanese cinema is also a good one. As if anyone understood in full the cultural references in Kurosawa, Ozu, Mizoguchi, Kobayashi, or even the more recent The Twilight Samurai, the first time they were watching.

As for Asterix and Obelix films, the animated releases are one thing, but let's not forget the two recent live action films starring Gérard Depardieu amongst others. They are perhaps bigger budgeted and larger marketed films than La Haine itself! Surely an audience watching or purchasing La Haine, as stated an English subtitled French film, would have at least heard of them? As I said, perhaps not when La Haine was initially made but certainly now upon the release of the Criterion DVD. Again I must insist the idea that Asterix and Obelix are so culturally oblique is absurd.

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Antoine Doinel
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#134 Post by Antoine Doinel » Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:19 am

soma wrote:Again I must insist the idea that Asterix and Obelix are so culturally oblique is absurd.
I concur. Living in Montreal, all the Asterix films have been released theatrically here and obviously the books are readily available. Yes, the audience is built in, but having also lived in Ontario, the Asterix and Tintin books were regular staples of the public libraries both in French and English versions there.

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Kinsayder
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#135 Post by Kinsayder » Fri Apr 27, 2007 11:00 am

How about "Pif" and "Hercule", French comic characters who are also referenced in the film? Anyone outside France or French-speaking countries ever heard of them? I'm curious to know how they get transformed in the Criterion subs.

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Gregory
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#136 Post by Gregory » Fri Apr 27, 2007 11:30 am

If it wouldn't have seemed too frivolous alongside a film like this one, a short essay or interview feature on bandes desinees and their cultural importance would have been a good thing for Criterion to include here (and potentially an enjoyable one, too).

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colinr0380
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#137 Post by colinr0380 » Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:51 pm

Thanks for the information on verlan, Kinsayder. I wonder what might happen with the subtitles to L'Esquive, if it ever gets released with them!

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Matt
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#138 Post by Matt » Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:45 pm

colinr0380 wrote:I wonder what might happen with the subtitles to L'Esquive, if it ever gets released with them!
Find out.

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garmonbozia
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#139 Post by garmonbozia » Fri Apr 27, 2007 5:50 pm

skuhn8 wrote:How would you label them? 'Subs for Dummies' and 'Subs for Smarties'?
how about something like "literal translation" and "alternate translation"

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#140 Post by colinr0380 » Sun Apr 29, 2007 8:12 am


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#141 Post by Suzukifan » Mon May 07, 2007 12:36 pm

Outside its own merits the film might be an interesting subtext to the recent French elections. I think Americans have seen recent rioting in France as inspired by religion and that seems pretty far from the truth. The film certainly doesn't take that side.

Still, I keep the film a little bit at arms lengths. It's very well done and compelling but doesn't offer much hope. There is absolutely nothing pointing to an integration of the three wanderers into a larger Parisian culture. A "Do the Right Thing" on steroids with both taking importance from framing a problem rather than suggesting any resolution.

Damn powerful film.

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#142 Post by oldsheperd » Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:33 pm

Just curious. Does Kassovitz explain how he got the crane shot when the DJ starts up his turntables in the projects. I'm sure you are all familiar but the camera goes from inside his apartment out the window and like flies over the projects. I've always been curious as to how he did that.

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#143 Post by miless » Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:37 pm

oldsheperd wrote:Just curious. Does Kassovitze explain how he got the crane shot when the DJ starts up his turntables in the projects. I'm sure you are all familiar but the camera goes from inside his apartment out the window and like flies over the projects. I've always been curious as to how he did that.
well... (at least the last bit) is a helicopter shot with a little bit of digital manipulation to take out the helicopter's shadow...

I actually think that it was two shots, one inside... and then cut to one just outside the window.

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oldsheperd
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#144 Post by oldsheperd » Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:39 pm

I thought that Kassovitz might have used the trick that Welles used in Kane when he went from the outside of the club to the inside in what appeared to be on continuous dolly, but Welles actually used a quick flash of lightning to disguise the cut. Obviously Kassovitz didn't do this.

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GringoTex
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#145 Post by GringoTex » Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:43 pm

Just watched this for the first time and was fairly disappointed. I found it formulaic and derivative of American "ghetto" films of the late 80s/early 90s. Kassovitz seemed to be reaching into his little bag of Spike Lee tricks for each scene. Great performances, though, and can't deny its cultural importance for France.

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#146 Post by jbeall » Wed Sep 05, 2007 3:24 pm

oldsheperd wrote:I thought that Kassovitz might have used the trick that Welles used in Kane when he went from the outside of the club to the inside in what appeared to be on continuous dolly, but Welles actually used a quick flash of lightning to disguise the cut. Obviously Kassovitz didn't do this.
Kassovitz talks about the shot--the helicopter shot, at least--on the commentary track. I can't speak for the cut.

Like miless said, it's a helicopter shot with the copter's shadow digitally erased. Although I like the shot, what was cooler to me was the mashup playing in the background with Edith Piaf singing over hip-hop beats.

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#147 Post by LeeB.Sims » Thu Sep 06, 2007 1:09 am

My personal favorite is the over-the-shoulder zoom into the mirror. That was the shot that really had me scratching my head (until I listened to the commentary that is). And while I can see the comparisons to Lee's Do the Right Thing, I still think this film is something wholly original. For one thing, it's not as goofy as DTRT, nor does it have the ridiculously expansive cast to detract from the actual character development. The three leads draw all of our focus for the entirety of the film and wring a lot of themselves out onto the screen to make them human. The characters in DTRT feel more like caricatures to me. I would say it bears a closer resemblance to Scorsese than Spike Lee.

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#148 Post by macaca » Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:18 pm

GringoTex wrote:Just watched this for the first time and was fairly disappointed. I found it formulaic and derivative of American "ghetto" films of the late 80s/early 90s. Kassovitz seemed to be reaching into his little bag of Spike Lee tricks for each scene. Great performances, though, and can't deny its cultural importance for France.
I was just about to post the exact same thing. For all the hype, I wasn't really impressed.

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#149 Post by ianungstad » Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:44 am

macaca wrote:
GringoTex wrote:Just watched this for the first time and was fairly disappointed. I found it formulaic and derivative of American "ghetto" films of the late 80s/early 90s. Kassovitz seemed to be reaching into his little bag of Spike Lee tricks for each scene. Great performances, though, and can't deny its cultural importance for France.
I was just about to post the exact same thing. For all the hype, I wasn't really impressed.
Ditto. I was expecting this film to be a lot more than it was. I didn't find it terrible or anything, just overtly unimpressed. It felt like a french film student ripping off as many american movies as he could...maybe that was groundbreaking in France. I dunno.

In Jodie Foster's interview they mention the Taxi Driver scene....was that suppose to be cute? Homage? It stuck out like a sore thumb especially.

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#150 Post by Lemmy Caution » Tue Sep 25, 2007 4:40 am

I thought it was a powerful film, capturing the rage, boredom and frustrations of living, marginalized, in a ghetto.

It also occurred to me that La Haine is essentially the flip-side of Stray Dog (La Chien Enrage, in French). Where in Kurosawa's film we follow a policeman delving into seedy society while trying to recover his lost revolver, in La Haine we follow the young hoodlum who lives in the underclass and finds the lost gun.

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