411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

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domino harvey
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#351 Post by domino harvey » Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:10 pm

The Jutzi film is a completely separate German adaptation of the novel made half a century before Fassbinder's film

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ando
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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#352 Post by ando » Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:20 pm

I was absolutely amazed at the level of intensity the film has sustained over first three or four scenes. So much so that, in fact, I've had to wait for a bit of time to pass before jumping in the deep end with Fassbinder again. I've watched only three of his previous works: Beware of A Holy Whore, Fos & His Friends and Whitey - all of which were essentially light in tone (compared with Alexanderplatz, certainly). But I don't believe a viewing of any one of them singly or collectively was necessary for an appreciation of Berlin Alexanderplatz.

Fassbinder had amazing energy which you can clearly feel coming from behind the camera. I know it sounds slighty ridiculous but his choices of an incredible force of nature in the main character, the staging (or blocking) of the main charcaters interactions with other very vital characters and the exhaustive thoroughness of costume, set design and locale are mightily impressive. It's a staggering feat thus far and it seems from what I've read here that it will only get better. It's also easy to see how and/or why this was developed as a television mini-series. Who could sustain a continued 15 hour engagement with such intensity coming off the screen?

At any rate, so far I've been most impressed with the conversation between the fresh-out-of-jail Franz Biberkopf and the two rabbis. The scene is really unlike anything else I've ever seen on film. It begins with the first rabbi speaking of hope and redemption for the soul of Biberkopf. Then the second rabbi steps in, reveals that the first rabbi is a consumate liar and trickster and the scene descends into a hell of howling accusations and recriminations. Fassbinder handles it masterfully as we watch for a fifteen minute interval a cinematic sea change in terms of atmosphere and mood around three characters in one room. I wonder if it's a capsule (of sorts) of what is to come - a foreshadowing, perhaps, of Biberkopf's journey...

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knives
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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#353 Post by knives » Wed Nov 26, 2008 2:50 pm

I've only gotten through the first two episodes and have to say that I'm impressed. I am curious though how true to the book it is since the timing seems a tad anachronistic. Were the Nazi party that popular and despised when the book was written? I could have sworn it was in the20s, not 30s or 40s. Still a blow out of a watch so far.

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ando
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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#354 Post by ando » Thu Nov 27, 2008 10:00 pm

I don't remember there being much in the way of a Nazi presence in the first few episodes, then again, it's been a while since i've viewed it.

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knives
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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#355 Post by knives » Fri Nov 28, 2008 3:47 am

A major point in the second episode is that he joins a Nazi newspaper and gets into a fight with Red friends over it. He quits at the beginning of the third episode.

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ando
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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#356 Post by ando » Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:39 pm

Sorry. I was confusing scenes with episodes - what I meant to say was (as I remember) the first few scenes are Nazi free.

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denti alligator
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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#357 Post by denti alligator » Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:36 pm

The Nazis were, of course, a major presence in 1920s Germany. Don't forget, Mein Kampf was published 1925/26. Doeblin's novel was published 1929.

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HerrSchreck
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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#358 Post by HerrSchreck » Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:21 am

Of course don't forget-- proof of how far back the National Socialist ambition goes prior to '33-- the event that made Mein Kampf possible: the Beer Hall Putsch of 23, leading to Hitler's arrest... the "extra time on his hands" during his 'incarceration' (or forced, brief vacation, considering the lightness of the sentence, it's conditions, all vs the severity of the crime) is what led him to write his notorious tract.

He and his pals re-enacted this failed putsch in Munich to no end after he came into power. The cult of death, incarnate.

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knives
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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#359 Post by knives » Sun Dec 07, 2008 5:58 pm

I forgot his arrest happened in the early 20s, that makes a lot more sense.

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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#360 Post by markhax » Sun Dec 07, 2008 8:24 pm

Hitler was very much on the Weimar radar screen in 1923, at the time of the November 9 beer hall putsch. George Grosz did a drawing of him that year dressed like Siegfried, with a fur tunic and sword.

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tholly
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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#361 Post by tholly » Sun Jun 14, 2009 4:15 pm

I have a question that I'm sure it was discussed somewhere in the 15 pages of posts, but I don't want to read through for fear of reading a spoiler. I plan on watching through this in one sitting this coming Saturday (with the obvious breaks to change discs, eat, etc.) My question is, should I watch the Phil Jutzi ninety-minute film before or after watching Fassbinder's work?

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knives
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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#362 Post by knives » Sun Jun 14, 2009 5:32 pm

I did after, but really it is only a matter of taste.

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domino harvey
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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#363 Post by domino harvey » Sun Jun 14, 2009 5:56 pm

What's worse, sitting through a 15 hour movie where you already know what's going to happen, or sitting through a 90 minute movie where you already know what's going to happen

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Murdoch
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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#364 Post by Murdoch » Sun Jun 14, 2009 6:06 pm

I didn't watch the Jutzi at all, I didn't see the point in it other than it may be interesting to compare the stylistic differences between the two films and their approach to the story, but by the end of the Fassbinder I was overwhelmed and the last thing I wanted was to watch more Biberkopf.

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GringoTex
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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#365 Post by GringoTex » Sun Jun 14, 2009 6:27 pm

I found the Jutzi completely unwatchable after the Fassbinder. It played like a cartoon.

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tholly
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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#366 Post by tholly » Sun Jun 14, 2009 9:21 pm

domino harvey wrote:What's worse, sitting through a 15 hour movie where you already know what's going to happen, or sitting through a 90 minute movie where you already know what's going to happen
Point taken. I'll be watching the 15.66 hour version first.

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Tom Hagen
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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#367 Post by Tom Hagen » Sun Jun 14, 2009 10:29 pm

Also, there isn't much to be gained by taking the film on in one sitting. You will want your full faculties for the last several episodes and the epilogue.

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knives
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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#368 Post by knives » Sun Jun 14, 2009 10:35 pm

Tom's 100% right on that. That's the reason why even official screenings are spread over two days. I wouldn't watch in less then three sittings personally.

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tholly
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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#369 Post by tholly » Sun Jun 14, 2009 10:56 pm

knives wrote:Tom's 100% right on that. That's the reason why even official screenings are spread over two days. I wouldn't watch in less then three sittings personally.
Yea, something came up for this Saturday and next, so I will probably just split it up and watch it this Friday evening, Saturday evening, remainder Sunday, rather than continue to postpone so that I can watch it in one sitting.

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HerrSchreck
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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#370 Post by HerrSchreck » Mon Jun 15, 2009 12:30 pm

I think sitting thru a 90 minute movie where you know what's going to happen is much worse than sitting thru an 894 min, 14 part film which is less about "what's going to happen" and more about "what is happenING at any given moment within the film"... A 90 minute film that's condensed is much more plot driven, whereas an 894 minute series is about living in the era, walking around with the characters and exploring the psyches and the times. It's impossible for a 90 minute film to tell you what's going to "happen" in all 894 minutes of a miniseries. One came after the other: do you think that those who'd seen the Jutzi when the series hit German TV would say "well watching this is going to be tedious, as I already know what's going to happen... so No-Go on that."

The above dissing of the Jutzi is just a total mystery to me. First of all the Jutzi was filmed in the city/era of it's setting, and the screenplay was an adaptation by the writer of the novel itself. They operate on two completely different levels, via two completely different approaches to filmmaking.

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Tom Hagen
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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#371 Post by Tom Hagen » Mon Jun 15, 2009 2:23 pm

I knew Schreck would be all over that one!! :)

I am intending to get to the Jutzi film and the supplemental docs, but I was so exhausted after the Fassbinder that I had to move on. Berlin Alexanderplatz was one of the great film experiences of my life, but it was also really draining. Some movies are a mile wide and an inch deep; others are visa versa. Berlin Alexanderplatz is one of the few films that I found to be as thematically and asthetically complex as it is long.

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GringoTex
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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#372 Post by GringoTex » Mon Jun 15, 2009 2:33 pm

HerrSchreck wrote:The above dissing of the Jutzi is just a total mystery to me. First of all the Jutzi was filmed in the city/era of it's setting, and the screenplay was an adaptation by the writer of the novel itself. They operate on two completely different levels, via two completely different approaches to filmmaking.
I've only watched the first 10 minutes of the Jutzi, so I have no right to diss it. Was just pointing out that I found it impossible to watch after finishing the Fassbinder. I'm sure I'll give it another shot when the Fassbinder isn't so seared into my mind.

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Dr. Snaut
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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#373 Post by Dr. Snaut » Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:02 pm

I haven't seen Fassbinder's Berlin Alexanderplatz since last summer and it is still seared in my mind. It haunts me in my sleep.

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Tommaso
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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#374 Post by Tommaso » Mon Jun 15, 2009 4:51 pm

GringoTex wrote:I've only watched the first 10 minutes of the Jutzi, so I have no right to diss it. Was just pointing out that I found it impossible to watch after finishing the Fassbinder. I'm sure I'll give it another shot when the Fassbinder isn't so seared into my mind.
I can understand your reaction; but I guess I'm happy that I watched the Jutzi before starting with the Fassbinder (of which I only managed the first two episodes so far), so that I wasn't influenced by the later work. Taken on its own, the Jutzi is certainly a very effective film, and one of enormous importance for late Weimar cinema as a major example of the socially conscious filmmaking that was still going on at the time; and thankfully it never shows the didacticism that I find in something like "Kuhle Wampe" (which is also great, of course). There are fabulous shots of the city itself, wonderful acting by George, nice camerawork et al. The film really deserves to be seen on its own, and it's so far removed stylistically from the Fassbinder that a comparison is out of the question for me, especially if the comparison tries to establish which is the better film.
In any case, if you don't know the book, start with the Jutzi; I guess if you then know the story from the earlier version, it might even help to appreciate the subtleties and the slowness of Fassbinder's version (which so far looks great to me, but I assume I keep the rest of it for the autumn season...).

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