1199 La cérémonie

[nicolas]

How does one go about adding external subtitles to a Blu-Ray? Would this only work on a PC or are there some UHD/BD players that enable you to do that, too? For 4k, I want to get the Sony UBP X800M2 next year.

I‘m doing this by importing the BD without (English) subtitles into my PC via MakeMKV. Then, I’ll find a good English subtitle file on OpenSubtitles and adjust the timings in a software like SubtitleEdit. I’m writing “like” because I’m a Mac user and have to use different apps but I’ve often read about Subtitle Edit. Then, I’ll merge the newly synced and timed English subs together with the MKV file of the film in another software called MKVToolnix and finally take that exported file and place it on a external hard drive connected to a NVIDIA Shield where I’m able to play the film via KODI, an app available on that App Store. It works beautifully and once you get the feel of it, doing all this is really easy and gives you so much freedom as you’re not dependent on subpar masters / encodes of English editions or force-subtitled foreign editions for example.

[Finch]

Thank you all for your responses. I've bookmarked a few things for further research. Much appreciated!

[nicolas]

Thank you all for your responses. I've bookmarked a few things for further research. Much appreciated!

Don’t hesitate to ask if you encounter problems along the way!

[tenia]

I have the Carlotta BD of La céremonie and gave it a look (had it still sealed) after seeing these screenshots.

This is certainly odd as the look on the Carlotta is totally different - it’s really striking.
The master is probably the same but there’s no blanket yellow or green tint.

The Beaver screenshots (take with a grain of salt) are indeed quite green, so either they’re wrong or Criterion received a different master. This isn’t the first time - Criterion got a better master of some Wong Kar-wai films - and I’m aware of cases where David M / FiM, who encoded the Carlotta BD, performed additional restoration and grading when necessary.

Regarding Carlotta : I'd have to check but it's clearly an Eclair job there, just as it is here, though there have indeed been way worse offenders. I'm not sure how much different the Carlotta and Criterion are, if they actually are as none of them are in the habit of tweaking gradings of newly restored masters (they aren't, say, Arrow or Camera Obscura), or if it's just Gary's notoriously inaccurate caps again. I'm also quite certain Carlotta released their Chabrol "as is".

I'm unsure about what you mean regarding the WKW movies : so far, it doesn't look like Criterion got anything different than what labels around the world got.

[nicolas]

I have the Carlotta BD of La céremonie and gave it a look (had it still sealed) after seeing these screenshots.

This is certainly odd as the look on the Carlotta is totally different - it’s really striking.
The master is probably the same but there’s no blanket yellow or green tint.

The Beaver screenshots (take with a grain of salt) are indeed quite green, so either they’re wrong or Criterion received a different master. This isn’t the first time - Criterion got a better master of some Wong Kar-wai films - and I’m aware of cases where David M / FiM, who encoded the Carlotta BD, performed additional restoration and grading when necessary.

Regarding Carlotta : I'd have to check but it's clearly an Eclair job there, just as it is here, though there have indeed been way worse offenders. I'm not sure how much different the Carlotta and Criterion are, if they actually are as none of them are in the habit of tweaking gradings of newly restored masters (they aren't, say, Arrow or Camera Obscura), or if it's just Gary's notoriously inaccurate caps again. I'm also quite certain Carlotta released their Chabrol "as is".

I'm unsure about what you mean regarding the WKW movies : so far, it doesn't look like Criterion got anything different than what labels around the world got.

If Carlotta and Criterion presented the master-as is, I’d definitely see that as a positive as it validates Eclair’s work on this particular film more than not. If they continue in this vein, I’m totally happy.
I’m looking forward to Svet reviewing the transfer and his own caps as (I think) they are more reliable than Gary’s.

Regarding the WKW masters. I’m certain Criterion received better masters for both In the Mood for Love and Happy Together. All foreign UHDs (France, Japan, Germany) have the same horrendous DNR’d masters. I’m speaking of experience as I own all of them (WKW is my favorite director). The Criterion BD and 4K UHD of the ITMFL 4K restoration have a different master with (subtle) grain and more detail clearly visible despite the possible filtering by Pixelogic and WKW’s tinkering. Happy Together is the same - their BD in the World of WKW set has grain and more detail than any UHD despite the bad encoding. It’s sad but that’s the way it is right now. I bought all these 4K’s in the hopes of finally getting great masters of these two films but so far, they’re all unwatchable.

[tenia]

ITMFL's French release possibly is DNRed on its own : The Jokers' label is co-directed by a person who originally founded Wild Side, which was notoriously DNRing their DVDs and BDs for a time. The Jokers' UHD of Ring is severely DNRed, too.
The German UHD of ITMFL seems to be extremely close to both Criterion's BD and UHD. In any case, no cap on caps-a-holic would allow to say these are different sources and one is better than the other. Same goes for the Criterion BD of Happy Together compared there to the German UHD.
(To be fair, they're filtered anyway to a point a UHD is pointless, especially in SDR)
I don't own these though, so it might be slightly different in motion but as I always remind, when it comes to texture and grain and such, I have yet to find properly taken screencaps that are saying something very different than what I'd see myself on a screen.


On La cérémonie : if Eclair were to reproduce what they did here on other movies, I'd still recognize it so it'd still be problematic. A bit less intrusive but still, in particular in how they're handling yellows and reds. Maybe some kind of a lesser evil, but evil nevertheless.
I have already seen this kind of lesser evil treatment from them on other movies they handled, and still have been able to recognize it. It's nothing new, and still something I think is not right, so definitely wouldn't be where I'd want the bar to be set.

[nicolas]

ITMFL's French release possibly is DNRed on its own : The Jokers' label is co-directed by a person who originally founded Wild Side, which was notoriously DNRing their DVDs and BDs for a time. The Jokers' UHD of Ring is severely DNRed, too.
The German UHD of ITMFL seems to be extremely close to both Criterion's BD and UHD. In any case, no cap on caps-a-holic would allow to say these are different sources and one is better than the other. Same goes for the Criterion BD of Happy Together compared there to the German UHD.
(To be fair, they're filtered anyway to a point a UHD is pointless, especially in SDR)
I don't own these though, so it might be slightly different in motion but as I always remind, when it comes to texture and grain and such, I have yet to find properly taken screencaps that are saying something very different than what I'd see myself on a screen.


On La cérémonie : if Eclair were to reproduce what they did here on other movies, I'd still recognize it so it'd still be problematic. A bit less intrusive but still, in particular in how they're handling yellows and reds. Maybe some kind of a lesser evil, but evil nevertheless.
I have already seen this kind of lesser evil treatment from them on other movies they handled, and still have been able to recognize it. It's nothing new, and still something I think is not right, so definitely wouldn't be where I'd want the bar to be set.

Thanks for the great insights in both subjects, very interesting as always.

A small last thing re. WKW (not to derail the thread much more): The Jokers are surely not innocent but I own a few others of their UHDs: WKW’s Days of Being Wild and As Tears Go By - both are stunning and (for me) the best versions available in the world right now. No DNR and excellent encoding. Same with Memories of Murder and (I believe) JSA as well. The Ring is unfortunate, although the German Plaion (formerly Koch) UHD also has DNR, so it could be inherent in that master as with other Japanese remasters. To go back to Wong one last time - he’s the main villain of this very messy, unfortunate situation.

[The Fanciful Norwegian]

A small last thing re. WKW (not to derail the thread much more): The Jokers are surely not innocent but I own a few others of their UHDs: WKW’s Days of Being Wild and As Tears Go By - both are stunning and (for me) the best versions available in the world right now. No DNR and excellent encoding.

This is interesting since those are the two restorations that weren't supervised and approved by Wong, though they were performed by the same Criterion/Ritrovata/One Cool group. It would hardly surprise me if Wong had DNR baked in to the restorations he oversaw, but if The Jokers didn't add DNR to the other two it would odd for them to add even more DNR to ITMFL.

The Ring is unfortunate, although the German Plaion (formerly Koch) UHD also has DNR, so it could be inherent in that master as with other Japanese remasters.

Well, Arrow's UHD is out now, so comparing it to the earlier UHDs would go some way towards clarifying matters there. I did find a review comparing The Jokers' Blu with Arrow's and claiming that the French disc looked DNRed by comparison.

[tenia]

I've seen a few caps from the Arrow UHD, it clearly doesn't have the French UHD issues.

[nicolas]

A small last thing re. WKW (not to derail the thread much more): The Jokers are surely not innocent but I own a few others of their UHDs: WKW’s Days of Being Wild and As Tears Go By - both are stunning and (for me) the best versions available in the world right now. No DNR and excellent encoding.

This is interesting since those are the two restorations that weren't supervised and approved by Wong, though they were performed by the same Criterion/Ritrovata/One Cool group. It would hardly surprise me if Wong had DNR baked in to the restorations he oversaw, but if The Jokers didn't add DNR to the other two it would odd for them to add even more DNR to ITMFL.

The Ring is unfortunate, although the German Plaion (formerly Koch) UHD also has DNR, so it could be inherent in that master as with other Japanese remasters.

Well, Arrow's UHD is out now, so comparing it to the earlier UHDs would go some way towards clarifying matters there. I did find a review comparing The Jokers' Blu with Arrow's and claiming that the French disc looked DNRed by comparison.

Exactly what tenia said. I took the Plaion Ring UHD and thought it’d be definitive as their encoding is usually excellent and often on the level of Arrow’s but after realizing that Arrow did their own restoration from the raw scan, I immediately parted with the German disc.

Re. WKW / The Jokers. I also believe that they didn’t add extra DNR to ITMFL as all the international UHD masters (except Criterion) look exactly the same. I’m grateful that the Criterion version is at least a little less DNR-affected, although it could be that they added a touch of fake grain in order to hide the WKW-approved atrocity underneath. I wouldn’t be surprised.
Jokers are soon releasing Chungking Express, Fallen Angels, Eros: The Hand and Happy Together in theaters (and likely later on UHD). They claim that all four have received 4K restorations - in the case of Eros it would be a premiere as the version on the Criterion BD and Japanese UHD of 2046 are all 1080p and from a very dated, ugly old master. Let’s hope they are brought to us on great discs.

[tenia]

Again, caps on caps-a-holic show that The Jokers' ITMFL UHD is notably smoother than the Criterion and the German UHDs.
https://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?a=1&x=31 ... 0&i=0&go=1

I don't believe Criterion added fake grain : it'd be a first, plus their discs look exactly like the German one in terms of texture.
https://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?a=1&x=33 ... 0&i=0&go=1

[mhofmann]

The Ring is unfortunate, although the German Plaion (formerly Koch) UHD also has DNR, so it could be inherent in that master as with other Japanese remasters.

I pointed the grain management out to Plaion a while back and they told me they didn't add any but used the master they were given as-is.

[mhofmann]

Re. WKW / The Jokers. I also believe that they didn’t add extra DNR to ITMFL as all the international UHD masters (except Criterion) look exactly the same. I’m grateful that the Criterion version is at least a little less DNR-affected, although it could be that they added a touch of fake grain in order to hide the WKW-approved atrocity underneath.

I believe the Plaion and the Criterion releases of ITMFL come from exactly the same master, no grain added or removed, except that the German one is in an HDR container (BT.2020 vs. BT.709, not sure if there are any substantial brightness differences).

[tenia]

The Ring is unfortunate, although the German Plaion (formerly Koch) UHD also has DNR, so it could be inherent in that master as with other Japanese remasters.

I pointed the grain management out to Plaion a while back and they told me they didn't add any but used the master they were given as-is.

What surprises me most about Ring is that I was under the impression that there only was 1 4k master available, which was the one produced in 2019 by Arrow for their BD (and then 2023 UHD) release. The 2019 booklet mentions that "The original 35mm camera negative was scanned in 4K resolution at Imagica, Tokyo" and that "The film was graded and restored at R3Store Studios in London." so it really doesn't look like they've been using a restoration mostly done by the rightholder but something they produced themselves. I guess one possibility is that Imagica also produced another master for Kadokawa, and that's what is available outside Arrow (ie : what they did at R3store is exclusive to Arrow), but in any case, I don't think anyone expected these foreign UHD releases to be that different from what Arrow released. If that's a case, then I guess there really are 2 different masters around for Ring, but it's a striking difference, unlike for the ITMFL discs.

Anyway, all this to say re. La cérémonie : I do wonder if there is that much difference between the FR and US discs.

[hearthesilence]

Before the sale hits, how does the encode on Criterion's compare with Carlotta's?

[nicolas]

Before the sale hits, how does the encode on Criterion's compare with Carlotta's?

Carlotta’s is a FiM encode, therefore a major improvement. I remember seeing caps of the Criterion and noticing all the usual blocking straight away.

[hearthesilence]

Got it - thanks nicolas, I'll stick with Carlotta's.

[therewillbeblus]

Before the sale hits, how does the encode on Criterion's compare with Carlotta's?

Carlotta’s is a FiM encode, therefore a major improvement. I remember seeing caps of the Criterion and noticing all the usual blocking straight away.

I had no idea this existed as an alternative - does the Carlotta disc have English subs?

[nicolas]

Before the sale hits, how does the encode on Criterion's compare with Carlotta's?

Carlotta’s is a FiM encode, therefore a major improvement. I remember seeing caps of the Criterion and noticing all the usual blocking straight away.

I had no idea this existed as an alternative - does the Carlotta disc have English subs?

Sadly not. Are you equipped to add external subtitles to your BD? I have a synced file of English subs for the Carlotta master.

[swo17]

Is the color scheme about the same on the Carlotta vs. the Criterion?

[nicolas]

Is the color scheme about the same on the Carlotta vs. the Criterion?

It’s the same master but it’s unknown whether David Mackenzie & Carlotta did additional grading for his encode similar to what he does with Radiance from time to time. The caps I’ve seen, including those by DVDBeaver, appear more yellow than the Carlotta BD does on my TV, but this could be due to all sorts of reasons, which is why I take them with a grain of salt.

[tenia]

From what I've seen, Criterion has the exact same grading as Carlotta.

[hearthesilence]

From what I've seen, Criterion has the exact same grading as Carlotta.

That's what it appears to me too using your posted caps of the Carlotta disc and Blu-ray.com's JPG compressed caps of Criterion's. I figured as much, my main concern was whether the encoding on Criterion's would be marred by artifacts.

I still have my Artificial Eye Blu-ray, which is tempting to sell, but there's enough about the new color grading that keeps me from doing so.

[therewillbeblus]

Are you equipped to add external subtitles to your BD? I have a synced file of English subs for the Carlotta master.

I don't think so, but I'm really not sure. It always sounds like a cool thing you all can do, I just assume it's way too complicated for me to figure out!