40 Armageddon

Discuss releases by Criterion and the films on them. Threads may contain spoilers!
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colinr0380
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Re: 40 Armageddon

#76 Post by colinr0380 » Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:00 pm

Matt's comment has reminded me of the astoundingly xenophobic portrayal of the Mir Space Station (or a non-copyright infringing close approximation thereof) as a rickety old deathtrap manned by a single insane Russian and just ready to be blown up by the first American who sets foot on board! Wasn't the Cold War supposed to have been over for years by the time this film was made?

How about 'three cameos' - Charlton Heston, Udo Kier and Grace Zabriske?

But seriously if we are just talking about the film (thereby preventing my mentioning the worthwhile elements of the Criterion release: the music video (plus making of), the gag reel, Affleck's impersonations of Billy Bob Thornton's Sling Blade character in the commentary, or Willis' scarily sincere "God bless America" sign off at the end of the same commentary), then one of the main reasons for watching this film simply has to be Steve Buscemi.
Last edited by colinr0380 on Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:09 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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knives
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Re: 40 Armageddon

#77 Post by knives » Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:04 pm

The Kier cameo is the best part of the whole movie. That and it looks like a perfume commercial.

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domino harvey
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Re: 40 Armageddon

#78 Post by domino harvey » Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:29 pm

It gave us the single worst modern rock song of the 90s (no small feat, that)

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colinr0380
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Re: 40 Armageddon

#79 Post by colinr0380 » Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:53 pm

Ah yes, 1998 - the year when it seemed that the radio featured only Aerosmith or Celine Dion on a constant rotation, both ballading about tragic, insipid love affairs.

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Toshiro De Niro
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Re: 40 Armageddon

#80 Post by Toshiro De Niro » Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:10 pm

Don't want to criticize the release too much- just be on the edge of criticizing it. I personally like the movie for its high shot-per- second ratio, it helped me forget about a toothache one time...

For one of the reasons, maybe the reason 1, I could use "an important classic or contemporary film" (since that's what Criterion is about). I could also edit the clip to make a false impression of it being an arthouse piece.
Matt wrote:1) Five credited screenwriters (insert clip of William Fichtner saying "Talk about the wrong stuff.")
2) Physics? What's physics? (insert clip of land vehicle jumping canyon, the debris of the Independence on fire in space)
3) Animal crackers (insert animal crackers scene, naturally)
"Five credited screenwriters" - I could find 5 short clips that differ in writing style...
swo17 wrote:Research in preparation for actual armageddon?
you got something there.

I'm going to rewatch the movie.

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willoneill
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Re: 40 Armageddon

#81 Post by willoneill » Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:51 pm

Matt wrote:3) Animal crackers (insert animal crackers scene, naturally)
I've read that this scene was actually written for the 1996 film Beautiful Girls. When the scene was cut, the screenwriter just stuck it in Armageddon.

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zedz
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Re: 40 Armageddon

#82 Post by zedz » Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:05 pm

willoneill wrote:
Matt wrote:3) Animal crackers (insert animal crackers scene, naturally)
I've read that this scene was actually written for the 1996 film Beautiful Girls. When the scene was cut, the screenwriter just stuck it in Armageddon.
"Just stick it in Armageddon" is just about the best advice I've heard all week. I think that's going to be my all-purpose snarky answer from now on.

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Matt
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Re: 40 Armageddon

#83 Post by Matt » Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:20 pm

willoneill wrote:
Matt wrote:3) Animal crackers (insert animal crackers scene, naturally)
I've read that this scene was actually written for the 1996 film Beautiful Girls. When the scene was cut, the screenwriter just stuck it in Armageddon.
Yep, the screenwriter for Beautiful Girls, Scott Rosenberg, was one of several uncredited writers on Armageddon (along with Robert Towne and Paul Attanasio, among others).

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Re: 40 Armageddon

#84 Post by The Fanciful Norwegian » Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:12 am

Alternative reason: "RUSSIAN ZPAZE ZTATION"

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Toshiro De Niro
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Re: 40 Armageddon

#85 Post by Toshiro De Niro » Tue May 21, 2013 5:01 pm

i've finally gotten around to making this Three Reasons trailer, here it is:
http://youtu.be/LIVkgB3OFz4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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jedgeco
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Re: 40 Armageddon

#86 Post by jedgeco » Wed May 22, 2013 12:13 pm

colinr0380 wrote:Matt's comment has reminded me of the astoundingly xenophobic portrayal of the Mir Space Station ... as a rickety old deathtrap manned by a single insane Russian and just ready to be blown up by the first American who sets foot on board!
And, IIRC, the only time he's able to do anything useful is when a (the) woman was unable to do it first.

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jindianajonz
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Re: 40 Armageddon

#87 Post by jindianajonz » Wed May 22, 2013 12:49 pm

colinr0380 wrote:Matt's comment has reminded me of the astoundingly xenophobic portrayal of the Mir Space Station (or a non-copyright infringing close approximation thereof) as a rickety old deathtrap manned by a single insane Russian and just ready to be blown up by the first American who sets foot on board! Wasn't the Cold War supposed to have been over for years by the time this film was made?
To be fair, the Mir was marred by a couple of safety incidents, though the danger was almost certainly exaggerated by Bay (Michael Bay implementing hyperbole???)

I am not familiar with the Russian space program, but the line "many workers at the TsUP felt that the mission hardware and continuation of Mir was more important than the lives of the cosmonauts aboard the station." is VERY true for Russian's military hardware. The Russians placed very little value on human lives, and I've been inside a few Soviet systems that are pretty much deathtraps for anybody unfortunate enough to be operating them if they were struck by any kind of ordnance. The US has always put a very high value on system safety, while the Soviets viewed system operators as a relatively cheap component to replace. I wouldn't be surprised if this attitude extended to their space ventures as well; keep in mind that it was launched before the cold war was over and was very much designed for Soviets rather than an international crew.

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colinr0380
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Re: 40 Armageddon

#88 Post by colinr0380 » Wed May 22, 2013 1:49 pm

Yes I agree (the handling of the Chernobyl incident comes to mind as well), although the retort to the way that fun is poked at the Mir-substitute space station in Armageddon would be to ask Michael Bay where the fabulous, totally safe American space station has gotten to, if the Russians are so rubbish at doing the whole space thing!

Sometimes if you want to explore you have to take some risks rather than waiting for some never-occurring set of perfectly safe conditions to arise. That would perhaps have been a more subtle approach to sensitively satirising the 'Mir', although that wouldn't have allowed for all the crazy Russian antics and the new visitors accidentally blowing the ramshackle place up!
jedgeco wrote:And, IIRC, the only time he's able to do anything useful is when a (the) woman was unable to do it first.
Doesn't that lone female astronaut also have to have an attack of hysterics near the end of the film, just before she gets knocked unconscious by one of the other guys?
Last edited by colinr0380 on Thu May 30, 2013 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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zedz
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Re: 40 Armageddon

#89 Post by zedz » Wed May 22, 2013 11:16 pm

jindianajonz wrote:I am not familiar with the Russian space program, but the line "many workers at the TsUP felt that the mission hardware and continuation of Mir was more important than the lives of the cosmonauts aboard the station." is VERY true for Russian's military hardware. The Russians placed very little value on human lives, and I've been inside a few Soviet systems that are pretty much deathtraps for anybody unfortunate enough to be operating them if they were struck by any kind of ordnance. The US has always put a very high value on system safety, while the Soviets viewed system operators as a relatively cheap component to replace. I wouldn't be surprised if this attitude extended to their space ventures as well; keep in mind that it was launched before the cold war was over and was very much designed for Soviets rather than an international crew.
If you want to know more, The Red Stuff is a great documentary on the Soviet space program. (And yes, that title is an all-too-appropriate three-way pun).

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Toshiro De Niro
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Re: 40 Armageddon

#90 Post by Toshiro De Niro » Wed May 29, 2013 12:28 pm

I posted the video over a week ago. At least 1 comment, postive or not- would really be appreciated!

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Matt
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Re: 40 Armageddon

#91 Post by Matt » Wed May 29, 2013 1:10 pm

Thanks for making it, I liked it. It's about a minute too long, though.

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#92 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Fri May 31, 2013 12:06 am

ben d banana wrote:I love the Aerosmith/Diane Warren song.
Sadly you haven't posted since 2007, so I doubt you'll come out of your hiatus to explain why. I like their post-rehab period up until this point. When the song came out initially I liked it, but once it became over-played (and became their only number 1 single) the band jumped the shark.

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Re: 40 Armageddon

#93 Post by rwiggum » Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:07 pm

This is dangerous territory, but I'm kind of tired of Armageddon being used as a whipping boy for bad films in the collection. (Also, a large part is likely the comic in me hating punchlines being re-tread over and over.) And keep in mind, this is divorced from my feelings about the film; This is more about what bothers me in the way these films are discussed in places like this.

While I understand that The Rock & Armageddon aren't high-brow entertainment, let's remember that the Criterion Collection isn't merely a collection of artistically beloved and adored films. In their own words, it's an attempt to canonize "important classic and contemporary films." And whether you like it or not, Armageddon is undeniably important. Michael Bay helped define the language of modern action cinema, and say what you will about his films, but he's an effortless visual stylist. Remember, "auteur" doesn't mean "great filmmaker," it means a filmmaker with a way of telling stories that is all their own. And Michael Bay is most certainly that.

But more importantly, I think what makes the Criterion Collection such a vital collection of films is that it encompasses a great deal of what cinema is about. If the collection were limited to the likes of Ozu and Fassbinder, that would give us a very limited view of the medium. Film is messy, with loads of styles, viewpoints and competing ideologies clashing and clanging against each other. The way Lumet approached and thought about filmmaking is very different than how Godard or Haneke think about films. If you want to study film seriously, you shouldn't just watch the most critically beloved films. You should watch as many different films by as many different filmmakers as you can. Do you hate some of them? Good. You should. But you can't discover what you like if you don't also know what you don't.

But watching films like this will also help you discover the gray area. There are great things to be found in terrible films, and often great craft and thought put into genre films that are outright dismissed by people who think themselves "better" than mainstream popcorn films.

The idea of rejecting the inclusion of Michael Bay films into some supposedly sacrosanct bubble of "true art" misses the point of how we should all view films, (which is to say, openly) and in turn makes you miss the great parts of films you're too busy deriding to notice.
Genre cinema is just as worthy of respect as any other corner of the medium. And any genre filmmaker who has such a lasting impact on the medium as Michael Bay absolutely deserves to be studied.

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Re: 40 Armageddon

#94 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:59 pm


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Andre Jurieu
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Re: 40 Armageddon

#95 Post by Andre Jurieu » Thu Jun 25, 2015 5:25 pm

"Art" is a fairly strong term to be using in this case. Sorry, I couldn't resist.


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Re: 40 Armageddon

#97 Post by cdnchris » Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:45 pm

I'm still amazed Disney let Criterion put that commentary out there because I recall him being pretty brutal on the film at times. Willis didn't seem entirely impressed either, though he was probably just disinterested in being there. The track with the scientists was also pretty good.

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Re: 40 Armageddon

#98 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:19 am

From what I remember he's merciless on the plot points but at no one in particular, which was probably his saving grace (if you could call it that) in being cast subsequently in Pearl Harbor.

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Re: 40 Armageddon

#99 Post by Werewolf by Night » Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:17 am

flyonthewall2983 wrote:From what I remember he's merciless on the plot points but at no one in particular
Well how would he know which of the (at least 9) writers to blame?

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Re: 40 Armageddon

#100 Post by colinr0380 » Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:49 pm

cdnchris wrote:I'm still amazed Disney let Criterion put that commentary out there because I recall him being pretty brutal on the film at times. Willis didn't seem entirely impressed either, though he was probably just disinterested in being there. The track with the scientists was also pretty good.
I seem to remember the track with the scientific advisers was similarly good naturedly scathing, in the sense that they regularly kept telling Michael Bay all of the science flaws only to be ignored in favour of the explosions in space angle!
flyonthewall2983 wrote:From what I remember he's merciless on the plot points but at no one in particular, which was probably his saving grace (if you could call it that) in being cast subsequently in Pearl Harbor.
Major spoilers for Pearl Harbor (the film, not the historical event) follow:

I might be one of the few people to actually have listened to it but Affleck's zingers on the Armageddon track are nothing compared to his great bits with Josh Harnett during their Pearl Harbor commentary. In the final scene of the Doolittle raider's homecoming their commentary amusingly duels with the slow motion emoting going on! It's also the climax of Affleck ragging on Alec Baldwin as much as he did on Billy Bob Thornton in the Armageddon commentary!:
[Alec Baldwin appears at the door of the aircraft]"I'm back, I'm fine, I'm fine. Woman you remind me of myself about...20 minutes ago"
[Affleck appears]"Hi, I'm OK too. Hurt my hand. Danny sadly has passed on"
[Affleck picks up the coffin and starts to manouevre it down the steps from the plane]"In fact, I have him here with me!"
Josh Harnett: I kind of made a pitch to be in the casket when they were pulling me off the plane
Ben Affleck: I made a pitch for you not to be! The pine box itself was really heavy going down those stairs by myself. Trying to do it with you in it would have been...falling down the steps with your casket, your dead body rolls out, its really awkward for all the families!
Which exchange is immediately followed by this in the scene of various characters getting medals pinned to them:
JH: I like this, where they sum it all up
BA: This is the thing - it's like they give all the nurses their medals but I never understand why we didn't do a scene where all the Doolittle raiders get their medals. They just gave it to me and its like "this is for all the guys but, you know, fuck the rest of you, we didn't have time to put all of them in the scene!". Doris Miller getting the Navy Cross, but he really should have the Congressional medal, but that's still pretty profound.
JH [as Affleck gets the medal from Roosevelt]: You bent over really well!
BA: Well, I got used to it on this movie!

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