663 Shoah

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Max von Mayerling
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Re: Forthcoming Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.

#26 Post by Max von Mayerling » Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:02 pm

Fair enough. I guess I would point out that the Beard and even Polanski are presenting fictional historical re-creations of events, whereas Shoah principally consists of the testimony of people who lived through these events. Certainly Lanzmann is sculpting it in terms of who he interviews, what he asks them, how he shoots them, and, perhaps most importantly, how the film is edited, but it's not exactly like he's presenting you with HIS recreation of what happened. He's giving you an edited version of what various participants say they saw and experienced. It would be like a film of Polanski telling us about what he experienced vs. him making a historical re-creation of Wladyslaw Szpilman's story. (In saying that I don't intend to demean "The Pianist" - I personally think very highly of it (although I would be interested to hear what Lanzmann might say about it).)

I guess where this is leading me is that it is pretty clear that when he speaks, Lanzmann has strong views about the correct - perhaps the moral/ethical - way to deal with the audio-visual depiction of these historical events. However, while his films certainly and necessarily reflect his views, I don't think they are reducible to his views, because the films depend so heavily on the testimony of the various participants.

Zot!
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Re: Forthcoming Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.

#27 Post by Zot! » Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:03 pm

Considering he's made his life's work the holocaust, I'm not suprised he might be a little embittered or defensive. I think Night and Fog is probably enough for me, or maybe even Shadows and Fog.

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Matt
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Re: Forthcoming: Shoah

#28 Post by Matt » Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:17 pm

Night and Fog and Shoah are probably the two best films on the Holocaust, but their approaches couldn't be more different. Night and Fog is a response to the magnitude of the horror of the death camps. Shoah seeks out individuals who made decisions that led to or who otherwise participated in the death of Jews and holds them accountable and likewise elicits the personal stories of individual survivors. Resnais' film is the macro view, Lanzmann's is the micro view, and both are necessary.

From interviews and the excerpts of his memoirs I've read, he doesn't sound like a particularly pleasant person, but if we only limit our appreciation of cinema to those films made by warm, wonderful human beings we'd have a very limited canon.

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knives
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Re: Forthcoming: Shoah

#29 Post by knives » Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:24 pm

Where would you put The Sorrow and the Pity between those two? Emotionally I don't think anything could top Resnais' film, but I appreciate the newsreel approach of Ophuls which helps to comprehend these horrible to the point of abstraction events.

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Max von Mayerling
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Re: Forthcoming: Shoah

#30 Post by Max von Mayerling » Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:25 pm

I'll second what Matt says, and note another way that they couldn't be more different - Shoah at 9 1/2 hours and Night & Fog at 31 minutes. But Night & Fog does a lot with that 31 minutes. And I agree they are necessary - essential viewing experiences ... but at the same time I guess I recognize they are not for everybody, because each is fairly punishing and draining in its own way. Shoah goes to some places so bleak that it is hard to fathom ... familiar to anyone who has investigated this topic much by way of other sources, like Primo Levi.

To rephrase my last comment - it's not like Shoah is 9 1/2 hours of Lanzmann talking & telling you what he thinks about what happened. It's various participants telling you what they claim to have seen and experienced. Again, Lanzmann is there, driving it, in his questions, in his subjects, in his methods, in his editing ... but they do most of the talking.

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Max von Mayerling
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Re: Forthcoming: Shoah

#31 Post by Max von Mayerling » Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:31 pm

My two cents on "The Sorrow and the Pity" is that you could almost say that in terms of Ophuls' method he almost stands between the two (although of course his film was before Shoah) - historical footage combined with first-person narratives. But I think it is also important to note that "The Sorrow and the Pity" really deals with a different subject matter - how the French dealt with the occupation - the degrees of resistance and collaboration. What the Nazis did to the Jews is a part of the subject matter of the film, but it isn't really the focus. "The Sorrow and the Pity" isn't a film about the Holocaust - it's a film about the French response to the occupation of France by the Nazis.
Last edited by Max von Mayerling on Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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knives
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Re: Forthcoming: Shoah

#32 Post by knives » Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:37 pm

I've always felt that while for the most it was sub-textual the Holocaust was certainly the major theme for Ophuls as the film tries to show the French people as complicit to what the Germans did expressing a whole country's guilt. It feels that Ohpuls is setting up everyone in Vichy France as a sort of failed good German type. Quietly sticking with the status quo mostly (with obvious exceptions) rebelling only in safe and meaningless ways.

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Max von Mayerling
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Re: Forthcoming: Shoah

#33 Post by Max von Mayerling » Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:48 pm

I certainly agree it is a major part of the film. (I'm saying that not having watched it since 2006.) My recollection is that "The Sorrow and the Pity" deals, in part, with French anti-semetism and the response of some of the population to the Nazi's treatment (and deportation) of French Jews. But it also deals with the resistance and the way the non-Jewish French dealt with each other and the Nazis. Shoah is very focused on Holocaust - for example, the interviews with Poles are (if I remember correctly) all about those who lived near the camps, did they know what was going on, etc. Similarly (but entirely differently), Night and Fog deals with images from the camps and the treatment of the Jews.

None of this, of course, is meant to be a critique or complaint regarding "The Sorrow and the Pity," which I think is also an amazing film, but I do think that in many important ways it really has a different historical focus than the other two films.

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knives
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Re: Forthcoming: Shoah

#34 Post by knives » Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:50 pm

Your memory is dead right concerning the film's content.

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Matt
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Re: Forthcoming: Shoah

#35 Post by Matt » Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:53 pm

It's been ages since I've seen it, but Ophuls does provide a model for Lanzmann's tenacious investigative reporting, not letting his interview subjects off the hook. But I don't think of it as a Holocaust film, really.

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knives
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Re: Forthcoming: Shoah

#36 Post by knives » Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:06 pm

You're probably right, but from a personal level the Holocaust (maybe it should be holocaust in the case of this film) element is the most important without regard to Ophuls intentions.

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Max von Mayerling
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Re: Forthcoming: Shoah

#37 Post by Max von Mayerling » Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:21 pm

I just want to point out that there are some interesting posts toward the end of the thread on the (very fine) MOC Shoah release ... including ones that reference the Lanzmann vs. Godard thing and also looking at "Schindler's List." This thread is also prompting me to go back to the excellent MOC booklet/tome.

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zedz
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Re: 663 Shoah

#38 Post by zedz » Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:50 pm

No real surprises in those specs, but this is an extremely impressive package.

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antnield
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Re: 663 Shoah

#39 Post by antnield » Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:21 pm

IMDb lists US (503 mins) and UK (566 mins) versions - anyone know the difference between the two?

The Criterion page suggests this release will be the US version, whilst the Masters of Cinema set conforms to the UK version.
Last edited by antnield on Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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zedz
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Re: 663 Shoah

#40 Post by zedz » Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:24 pm

It's a big film, but that's a big difference. I never even realised there were two versions. Good news for people who already own MoC's excellent edition, at any rate!

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TMDaines
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Re: 663 Shoah

#41 Post by TMDaines » Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:36 pm

antnield wrote:IMDb lists US (503 mins) and UK (566 mins) versions - anyone know the difference between the two?

The Criterion page suggests this release will be the US version, whilst the Masters of Cinema set conforms to the UK version.
Pity there's not a much shorter cut. I find the film to be incredibly bloated at times, pretentious at others, and smug on occasion. I'd still consider it to be an absolute must watch if you're studying the Holocaust, history in general or even film. There's a lot of great material in the film but I don't think it has been particularly well edited or structured. I think I'll still buy this to see the three additional films and I should be able to sell my MoC for a fair amount anyway.
Last edited by TMDaines on Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Grand Illusion
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Re: 663 Shoah

#42 Post by Grand Illusion » Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:43 pm

Finally. First saw this over a decade ago, and I've been waiting for a great R1 DVD.

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Finch
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Re: 663 Shoah

#43 Post by Finch » Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:48 pm

Have to agree with TMD: if I get this release, it'll be mainly for the additional features because, honestly, as great as the film is, how many times are most people going to rewatch Shoah?

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antnield
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Re: 663 Shoah

#44 Post by antnield » Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:50 pm

antnield wrote:IMDb lists US (503 mins) and UK (566 mins) versions - anyone know the difference between the two?

The Criterion page suggests this release will be the US version, whilst the Masters of Cinema set conforms to the UK version.
The page has been updated - now gives a running time of 550 minutes.

Numero Trois
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Re: 663 Shoah

#45 Post by Numero Trois » Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:37 am

It will be nice to have subtitles for the English speaking interview subjects. My main gripe with the New Yorker VHS edition was that in certain interviews it was difficult to decipher the heavily accented English.
Finch wrote:honestly, as great as the film is, how many times are most people going to rewatch Shoah?
Yes. Thankfully with Lanzmann's straightforward approach a single viewing is definetly enough to get to the gist of it. Unlike say with something like The Sorrow and the Pity where multiple viewings is practically mandatory to take in all the details.

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andyli
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Re: 663 Shoah

#46 Post by andyli » Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:08 pm

Now the specs page reads "New, restored 4K digital film transfer". Actually they've been quietly updating the description of transfer on quite a few coming-soon titles, now specifying 2K or 4K restoration.

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Dragoon En Regalia
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Re: 663 Shoah

#47 Post by Dragoon En Regalia » Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:42 pm

DVDBeaver. Transfer looks very good, as expected. This must have taken the Beav a while to get caps for.

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knives
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Re: 663 Shoah

#48 Post by knives » Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:45 pm

It shouldn't have taken long for him to go to each chapter stop.

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Gregory
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Re: 663 Shoah

#49 Post by Gregory » Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:06 pm

That looks tinted, heavily manipulated in some way.
1st comparison: The man's gray hair and the "whites" of his eyes are bluish.
3rd comparison: The entire background is bluish-green.
4th comparison: Sign and window casings look the same shade of light blue. Sidewalk and man's "white" shirt also bluish.
3rd to last cap: Bluish-green snow?

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vsski
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Re: 663 Shoah

#50 Post by vsski » Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:23 pm

Gregory wrote:That looks tinted, heavily manipulated in some way.
1st comparison: The man's gray hair and the "whites" of his eyes are bluish.
3rd comparison: The entire background is bluish-green.
4th comparison: Sign and window casings look the same shade of light blue. Sidewalk and man's "white" shirt also bluish.
3rd to last cap: Bluish-green snow?
I agree - something looks off here. While clearly more detail is visible compared to the MoC DVD images, in his text Gary says that "the previous DVDs (New Yorker and MoC) looks very flat and green in comparisons", however, looking at the caps the CC looks more green-bluish. Not sure what to think of this, but will be interested to see other reviews, especially since I no longer want to make the mistake of too quickly jumping to conclusions from Gary's screecaps.

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