515 The Fugitive Kind

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colinr0380
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Re: 515 The Fugitive Kind

#26 Post by colinr0380 » Thu Apr 08, 2010 2:31 pm


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Re: 515 The Fugitive Kind

#27 Post by cdnchris » Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:16 am


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ando
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Re: 515 The Fugitive Kind

#28 Post by ando » Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:09 am

Michael wrote:Easily the best Tennessee Williams film.
Well. That's a mouthful. I don't feel this film comes close to the magnificent wretchedness of Kazan's A Streetcar Named Desire (another Williams play) in terms of influence or artistry. Kazan & Company create a whole world in Streetcar. The Fugitive Kind, on the other hand, could just as easily be called Sketches of Tennessee - a couple of impressive sequences (the Woodward/juke joint sequence, for example), some fabulous acting (Magnani revealing her abortion and refusal to tell her lover after being jilted, especially) but altogether not nearly as moving an experience as Streetcar. Not even close.

I admire Lumet. But, again, the work here is so much less than what he did, for instance, with Eugene O'Neil's Long Day's Journey Into Night. The work from everyone involved in that film is absolutely top rate. Of course, you've got Jason Robards, known for his great O'Neil performances; Kate Hepburn, who gives one of her best screen performances; Sir Ralph Richardson and Dean Stockwell, both in excellent form; and Boris Kauffman, who was able to capture that ineffable atmosphere within familial relationships: emotional scars that plague the heart and mind and is seldom translatable to anyone else.

Other than a moment or two with Magnani, no scene or actor really conveys that kind of deep, life-altering pathos that we are witness to in Streetcar and Long Day's Journey, in my opinion. These are two "benchmark" films, so it's not really fair to compare them to A Fugitive Kind. But your claim drew it out of me.

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Re: 515 The Fugitive Kind

#29 Post by Michael » Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:03 am

Interesting. Streetcar is a film I can’t bear to sit through. The woozy Vivien Leigh annoys the hell out of me – not a solid Blanche and the film feels too studio-controlled. I understand the era the film came from but like Cat on a Hot Tin Roof and Suddenly Last Summer, the film fails miserably by toning down the gay text of the play. The gay text is the beef of those works. His plays hang on the tragedies caused by internalized homophobia – the suicide of Blanche’s beau, the suicide of Brick’s “lover” and the killing of Sebastien and their ramifications and affect on the characters involved in their lives. The film adaptations bypassed all that and came up with lame excuses for the characters’ tragedies, turning the films into silly jokes that make no sense.

No question that those films are very beautiful to look at and star very beautiful people. Even though The Fugitive Kind and Baby Doll do not have any bit of the gay text to worry about.

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Re: 515 The Fugitive Kind

#30 Post by domino harvey » Mon Apr 26, 2010 5:00 pm

The gay element of Suddenly Last Summer is toned down? It's certainly there, unlike in Cat on a Hot Tin Roof

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Re: 515 The Fugitive Kind

#31 Post by ando » Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:16 am

Michael wrote:The woozy Vivien Leigh annoys the hell out of me – not a solid Blanche
Alright, how solid do you want her? Kathy Bates solid? Mamma Cass solid? Blanche, as written by Tennessee Williams is one of the great extraordinary neurotics. Asking for a solid Blache is rather like asking for a shaky Sphynx. And to be fair, Leigh's fragile and willowy moments are also countered with moments of surprising ferocity and frank sobriety. It's a complex and highly nuanced performance - one of the best I've seen on stage or screen. I think she earned her Oscar.
the film fails miserably by toning down the gay text of the play.
It's not a gay-themed play, subtextually or otherwise. This doesn't mean that there is no gay subtext to be read in it, but that is not Williams' primary concern. The film is a great triumph because it manages to convey the failure of people to co-habitate peacefully due to the illusions they hold about themselves and their intolerance of other people's illusions. Stanley, in his brusque manner, is equally as unrealistic as Blanche about his place, not only in his own household, but in the world - and is intolerant of anyone who poses a threat to his illusion. This goes far beyond sexuality. It has to do with one's basic orientation toward life. We all have illusions about ourselves and others which we'll fight to the death to maintain. This is what the play is concerned with, not merely some suppressed homosexual drive, though this would certainly be included.
His plays hang on the tragedies caused by internalized homophobia
If that's all Tennessee Williams was up to he wouldn't much of a playwright. Fortunately, his considerations go much further.

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Re: 515 The Fugitive Kind

#32 Post by knives » Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:32 am

ando wrote:
Michael wrote:His plays hang on the tragedies caused by internalized homophobia
If that's all Tennessee Williams was up to he wouldn't much of a playwright. Fortunately, his considerations go much further.
I think Michael was specifically referring to those two, Streetcar and Cat, as far as a focus on internalized homophobia. Even than I think, to move away from shoving words into Michael's mouth, that the gay text and subtext from many a Williams play is the opening point to all of the other themes of humanity he wants to explore. By censoring the homosexual aspects all of the themes become fractured and in the case of Cat are completely altered beyond what Williams intended. In a sense his Streetcar and co. become completely different stories without the subtext being apparent. The suppressed homosexual drive allows for the illusions about ourselves and others which we'll fight to the death to maintain that you're focused upon. For me this isn't a deal breaker, but it is understandable that it could be for someone.

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Re: 515 The Fugitive Kind

#33 Post by ando » Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:29 am

knives wrote: The suppressed homosexual drive allows for the illusions about ourselves and others which we'll fight to the death to maintain that you're focused upon. For me this isn't a deal breaker, but it is understandable that it could be for someone.
The manner in which these characters create illusions about who they are seems to me to be merely incidental. What's more crucial is that these illusions prevent them from entering into healthy relationships with other other. The intensity of the violence (and sex, though the latter is kept off camera) seems to me a direct result of people holding on tightly to ill-formed notions of who they're supposed to be. Stanley is as covetous as Blache of his persona, but is far more deadly at protecting and defending it.

To bring this point round to the subject at hand, namely, The Fugitive Kind; Jabe Torrance, played by Victor Jory, is the absolute personification of what I'm trying to describe. In that character Williams has invested what's at the heart and soul of Streetcar, far more than simply a suppressed desire (of any sort). Jabe comes home from the hospital completely disabled psychologically, emotionally - and, certainly, sexually (and one can argue for a supressed homosexuality in his rather overt lusting over the snakeskin clad Brando) yet he has to have complete control of everyone around him. These characters are at the beck and call of this crippled man, maintaining the supreme lie that he's on the road to recovery when they can't wait for him to die!* It's on this initial lie that Williams begins to examine the disintergrating relations of the characters within Jabe's enviornment. It's all a downhill slide unless our heroin, Lady Torrence, played by Anna Magnani, is able to break through this massive web of lies and deceit and end the world Jabe has created. To do this this she enlists the help of the unwitting (though he catches on fairly quickly) Valentine Xavier, played by Brando.

Now, I think this is an evolution-of-sorts in Williams' work. And ideally, I suppose it should be a better film than Streetcar, for example, coming later in his oeuvre. But it isn't a better film for reasons having more to do with execution than theme development.


*(Incidentally, Karl Marlden, in an interview discussing the character of Mitch in Streetcar, stated that seldom did he see an actor capture what he felt was the central issue with the character. Despite all the talk to Blanche conveying concern about his aging mother; in actuality, he hates her.)

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Re: 515 The Fugitive Kind

#34 Post by Tribe » Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:40 am

While I still haven't watched the entire movie (fell asleep, not because it was boring, but because I started late and was keeping abreast of the late baseball scores from the West Coast), but the very first scene was simply mesmerizing just because of Brando. His mannerisms, his dialogue interspersed with "uhs" and uhms," the mumbling...it all reminded me what a unique actor he was and what an impression he must have made on audiences back in the day. His delivery and the way the scene is one take was incredibly mesmerizing...all the subtle touches (i.e., turning hsi head to look behind himself, the way he approaches the judge's bench, for example), I'm curious whether he brought all those things to the movie.

Brando was truly a one of a kind. Very much looking forward to the rest of this.

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Re: 515 The Fugitive Kind

#35 Post by domino harvey » Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:10 pm

Brando got bored with movie acting very early in his career, so he'd always come up with self-imposed quirks and affectations to keep himself interested. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't-- see: that accent in Sayonara!

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Re: 515 The Fugitive Kind

#36 Post by Michael » Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:20 am

domino harvey wrote:The gay element of Suddenly Last Summer is toned down? It's certainly there, unlike in Cat on a Hot Tin Roof
The gay text/element is in the film versions of Streetcar, Cat, and Suddenly but made buried very deep. The Streetcar play makes it very clear that Blanche discovers her "beau" in bed with another man and that prompts her to "tip over the cliff", definitely one of the revelations of the play, the one that gets blurred in the film. Same thing with Cat. In Suddenly, Sebastian is treated as the "other" and his voice or face is never revealed. Imagine how the mainstream audience interprets that. Again, it's blurred.

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Re: 515 The Fugitive Kind

#37 Post by Michael » Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:36 am

ando, my choice of the word "solid" is certainly misleading. Vivien Leigh did not instill enough pathos in Blanche for me. She is not what I have in mind when I think of Blanche. More like Tallulah Bankhead. ;) But from what I read, Tennessee Williams loved her performance.

The Fugitive Kind may not be a masterpiece but it's still such an unique film. The star power and chemistry of Magnani and Brando is impossibly overwhelming and so very rare. I have not seen the CC Fugitive Kind yet but from my memories of seeing this film, I just love Magnani escaping to the ruins of the South as if she looked for the ruins of her homeland and her soul. That little terrazzo she built - quaintly lit with strings of lightings and flowers - makes me smile. We are better for this film that preserves Magnani and Brando together in their prime - among the most beautiful people ever breathe.

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Re: 515 The Fugitive Kind

#38 Post by HarryLong » Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:02 pm

Michael wrote:In Suddenly, Sebastian is treated as the "other" and his voice or face is never revealed. Imagine how the mainstream audience interprets that. Again, it's blurred.
I don't see how this blurs the play, where Sebastian is never even seen onstage. Arguably he's more present in the film because the audience does at least see something of him.
What works less well with the film for me is that it had to be "opened up" with extra material to pad the running time (if I recall correctly the play - a long one-act - runs only about an hour or so... maybe 90 minutes, tops). All the extra footage of things like Liz in the asylum diffuse the line of action. I'm sure some excisions had to be made to mollify the censors, but my experience with the play is far in the past & it's been many a moon since I've watched the film, so I can't recall specific instances.
But I'd have to disagree that making Sebastian faceless & confining him to MOS flashbacks blurs the play or makes him more "other" than in it.

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Re: 515 The Fugitive Kind

#39 Post by Michael » Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:37 pm

I haven't seen Suddenly in ages and never read the play but this discussion is making me want to revisit the film. I would be surprised if the mainstream audience got what the "other" meant and from my memories, I thought the film was hysterical.

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Re: 515 The Fugitive Kind

#40 Post by domino harvey » Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:14 pm

There's nothing else it could mean except gay in Suddenly, like literally no other possible interpretation

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Re: 515 The Fugitive Kind

#41 Post by Michael » Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:23 am

domino harvey wrote:There's nothing else it could mean except gay in Suddenly, like literally no other possible interpretation
Just discovered this interesting tidbit from wikipedia:

As with some of Williams' other plays, the plot involves a homosexual man portrayed in a negative light. Williams may have originally used this motif to express his own unresolved shame, while Vidal may have seen it as an opportunity to point out and/or exaggerate and mock the homophobia of 1950s society.[citation needed] In Suddenly, Last Summer, the gay man is cast as a faceless pederast (as opposed to pedophile), who comes to a horrific end as a consequence of his own off-screen actions.

Vidal, who has a cameo in the film, reports in Vito Russo's book The Celluloid Closet and subsequent documentary that the censors of the day, especially the Catholic Legion of Decency, forced him to edit much of the dialogue so that the homosexual theme is only implied, and that the actual homosexual character does not have a face or a voice in the film.

Vito Russo, author of The Celluloid Closet, reports that Katharine Hepburn was so upset by the producer Sam Spiegel's treatment of Montgomery Clift during the making of this film -- Spiegel reportedly disliked Clift because he was gay (he in fact had many affairs with both men and women) -- that, after confirming that all of her filming was completed, she spat in Spiegel's face. Some sources state that director Mankiewicz who also a target of Hepburn's outrage.


I really need to revisit the film.

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Re: 515 The Fugitive Kind

#42 Post by HarryLong » Fri Apr 30, 2010 12:38 pm

Making Sebastian faceless in MOS flashbacks always just struck me as a cinematic equivalent of his non-presence in the play. I'm not sure how treating him that way onscreen somehow mollified the Production Code.
I wonder if this is just Vidal spinning a good yarn? (And I admire Vidal tremendously.)

>>There's nothing else it could mean except gay in Suddenly, like literally no other possible interpretation<<
Well, you know it & I l know it, Domino, but I was not long ago in discussion with someone who didn't get that Sebastian was literally devoured by the young men he was preying on & argued that it was merely my interpretation & not necessarily what Williams meant (just which part of the line, "They were eating him." didn't he understand, I wonder).
But as the word homosexual, nor any of the slang equivalents of the time, were used, I suppose there are those who can take refuge behind their dim-wittedness.
It's interesting that Williams' companion piece to SUDDENLY is a one-act titled SOMETHING UNSPOKEN. In it one woman (usually played as older) is infatuated with a younger woman who is, more or less, being kept (though ostensibly a paid companion). That the older woman never comes right out and states explicitly her desires allows the younger one to feign naivete; she never has to enter into a sexual relationship or say no & risk losing her cushy position.
(The play also serves as a nice balance to SUDDENLY in that while Sebastion is preying on/victimizing the poor young men of the countries he visits, it is the gay charcter of UNSPOKEN who is taken advantage of.)

Hmmm... I think this is now officially way off-topic.

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Re: 515 The Fugitive Kind

#43 Post by domino harvey » Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:12 pm

We can pick it up/move it here

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Re: 515 The Fugitive Kind

#44 Post by Yojimbo » Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:53 am

I've just bought this on another Brando box-set, which also includes 'The Young Lions', 'Morituri', and 'Viva Zapata'
I'm looking forward to checking out all of them, particularly 'Morituri', which sounds like it could prove to be, at the very least, a 'guilty pleasure' .With the exception of glancing half-interestedly at 'Zapata', I've never seen any of these films before.

Joanne Woodward for me is like Meryl Streep: an outstanding actress but you just wish she'd loosen up, occasionally
(although granted Streep seems to have learned to do so, recently)

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Re: 515 The Fugitive Kind

#45 Post by domino harvey » Tue Aug 24, 2010 9:39 pm

Finally watched this and enjoyed it quite a bit, though it seems awfully frontloaded. That first third though, with Joanne Woodward's spitfire hellcat tearing up town, finds the film in an energetic groove that it loses once she gets pushed aside for Magnani. There's some great stylistic intrusions in the film, like the long circle-pan in the juke joint or the wonderful scene where Brando keeps drowning out Woodward with the record player, and the cinematography, as mentioned earlier, is top-shelf. But Lumet has some problems with the Magnani storyline, and her attachment to the "after movies" joint she's building is told rather than shown, and nearly all of the supporting characters are ludicrously drawn in the same style.

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Re: 515 The Fugitive Kind

#46 Post by Yojimbo » Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:03 pm

domino harvey wrote:Finally watched this and enjoyed it quite a bit, though it seems awfully frontloaded. That first third though, with Joanne Woodward's spitfire hellcat tearing up town, finds the film in an energetic groove that it loses once she gets pushed aside for Magnani. There's some great stylistic intrusions in the film, like the long circle-pan in the juke joint or the wonderful scene where Brando keeps drowning out Woodward with the record player, and the cinematography, as mentioned earlier, is top-shelf. But Lumet has some problems with the Magnani storyline, and her attachment to the "after movies" joint she's building is told rather than shown, and nearly all of the supporting characters are ludicrously drawn in the same style.
I'm currently watching Joanne Woodward in the Lew Archer adaptation, 'The Moving Target'
She seems to be having a ball with her character; perhaps I'll take this opportunity to have a Joanne Woodward double-bill, albeit spread over two nights

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Re: 515 The Fugitive Kind

#47 Post by Anhedionisiac » Wed Aug 25, 2010 1:53 am

Yojimbo wrote: I'm currently watching Joanne Woodward in the Lew Archer adaptation, 'The Moving Target'
She seems to be having a ball with her character; perhaps I'll take this opportunity to have a Joanne Woodward double-bill, albeit spread over two nights
You mean The Drowning Pool ? The Moving Target is the book the first Harper film is based on but Joanne Woodward is in its sequel, The Drowning Pool.

Funnily enough, I had the reverse experience: I decided to watch The Drowning Pool and a couple other films based on her incredible performance in The Fugitive Kind.
I found her Carol Cutrere a revelation after knowing her only from parts in, say, The Long Hot Summer. I honestly believe she's a much better foil to Brando than Magnani, who rubs me off the wrong way in this film. Orpheus Descending is quite possibly my favorite of Williams' plays so I know it by heart and memory alike yet I had never thought of Carol as such a vividly realized character. I found myself wishing for a whole film based around her, that's how charismatic I found Ms. Woodward. It's a shame she didn't act more, film-wise, that she didn't get better roles. We were robbed!

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Re: 515 The Fugitive Kind

#48 Post by Michael » Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:00 am

Trying to understand why Magnani "rubs you in the wrong way". I thought she was magnificient in The Fugitive Kind, not the performance of her life but certainly the best of her brief American career.

Magnani is a foreigner in this Southern landscape of the film - a woman with withered roots, longing for the terrazzo lights and flowers of her home, that is Italy. Brando and Magnani rub up each other completely in lust and that lust to Brando is nothing more than Magnani being exotic - especially in the land of country women. She is an outcast. She is a loner. Just think of her as Tennesee Williams being chased and made love to by Brando.

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Re: 515 The Fugitive Kind

#49 Post by Yojimbo » Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:47 am

Anhedionisiac wrote:
Yojimbo wrote: I'm currently watching Joanne Woodward in the Lew Archer adaptation, 'The Moving Target'
She seems to be having a ball with her character; perhaps I'll take this opportunity to have a Joanne Woodward double-bill, albeit spread over two nights
You mean The Drowning Pool ? The Moving Target is the book the first Harper film is based on but Joanne Woodward is in its sequel, The Drowning Pool.

Funnily enough, I had the reverse experience: I decided to watch The Drowning Pool and a couple other films based on her incredible performance in The Fugitive Kind.
I found her Carol Cutrere a revelation after knowing her only from parts in, say, The Long Hot Summer. I honestly believe she's a much better foil to Brando than Magnani, who rubs me off the wrong way in this film. Orpheus Descending is quite possibly my favorite of Williams' plays so I know it by heart and memory alike yet I had never thought of Carol as such a vividly realized character. I found myself wishing for a whole film based around her, that's how charismatic I found Ms. Woodward. It's a shame she didn't act more, film-wise, that she didn't get better roles. We were robbed!
Yes, The Drowning Pool: I've been looking at a bargain 'Paul Newman Collection' which includes the two 'Lew Archer' adaptations, and have even found myself calling him 'Harper' (the Macdonald character, I mean!)

I first noticed Joanne Woodward almost 40 years ago in 'Summer Wishes, Winter Dreams', with Martin Balsam, which is worth checking out.
I wonder did she deliberately take a backseat to help hubby's career develop.
She's certainly a better actor

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Re: 515 The Fugitive Kind

#50 Post by Anhedionisiac » Wed Aug 25, 2010 12:42 pm

Michael wrote:Trying to understand why Magnani "rubs you in the wrong way". I thought she was magnificient in The Fugitive Kind, not the performance of her life but certainly the best of her brief American career.

Magnani is a foreigner in this Southern landscape of the film - a woman with withered roots, longing for the terrazzo lights and flowers of her home, that is Italy. Brando and Magnani rub up each other completely in lust and that lust to Brando is nothing more than Magnani being exotic - especially in the land of country women. She is an outcast. She is a loner. Just think of her as Tennesee Williams being chased and made love to by Brando.
I appreciate your thoughts. I think Magnani is technically formidable and an emotional power-house but unfortunately I find it very hard to believe Brando would chase and make love to her. As good as both actors are, and despite what their characters call for, I can't help noticing that Brando isn't interested in her and that Magnani herself is extremely interested in him right off the bat. It's rather awkward.

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